Brad Treliving needs to go

[Inglewood Jack]

Originally Posted by jayswin

"But 2019!!".

Even that is too generous, it’s more like “But November 2018 to February 2019!!”

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Oh man, whoever said it recently was right. That half season of magic is going to be written on the tombstone of many Flames fans when defending the failure of this build.

"But 2019!!".

I’m not defending anything. I’m disagreeing as to the reason it failed.

[jayswin]

You're lawyering, yes I know. Doesn't change my point...but 2019! Every other year of futility is the outlier!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jayswin

You're lawyering, yes I know. Doesn't change my point...but 2019! Every other year of futility is the outlier!

Nah, the team failed in its build. I’m just saying not spending picks wouldn’t have made the difference.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

This team better be sure on the trades that they are likely to make this off-season. Players like Tkachuk, Gaudreau, Monahan and Giordano that many people here feel that they should move on from. There are no players even close to those ceilings in the system right now. Maybe a few exceed expectations, but there isn't a lot of skill coming up through the ranks. This team simply hasn't picked often enough, and this team can't afford to trade more players away for pennies on the dollar.

I’ll acknowledge that you’re likely right, but let’s not forget what Gaudreau and Giordano were when they were 21. Big question marks on both.

As for picking often enough, it’s not a guarantee of success. See 2013 Calgary Flames first round.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I’ll acknowledge that you’re likely right, but let’s not forget what Gaudreau and Giordano were when they were 21. Big question marks on both.

As for picking often enough, it’s not a guarantee of success. See 2013 Calgary Flames first round.

015. 6 picks in the first 2 rounds and the best they got was Debrusk and Carlo. Missed Barzal, Connor, Chabot, Konecny, Boeser, Aho, Rasmus...

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

2 years after those trades, Calgary finished first in the division and west, second in the league. And I dare say if the Hamonic trade had been for a different player they might still be up there. Again, it was the player acquired, not trading a pick per se.

It was trading the picks plural that was the problem, not the players they got in return. Well run organizations do not trade two firsts and five second round picks in 24 months when no rational hockey observer thinks they are anywhere near being a contender. It just never happens except for a 24 month period for the Flames. One would hope that there would be at least a small period of time where burning that much draft capital would result in having a decent team. For the Flames, that was the first 45-50 games of the 2018/2019 season. But you lose that much draft capital and you are going to be bad more often than not 4-6 years after those trades. That 4-6 year period is where we are at now. Most teams like the Lightning burn all that capital when they are trying to (and actually do) win a Cup. Brad traded all that capital to get a team that could make the playoffs in 3 of the next 6 years.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

It was trading the picks plural that was the problem, not the players they got in return. Well run organizations do not trade two firsts and five second round picks in 24 months when no rational hockey observer thinks they are anywhere near being a contender. It just never happens except for a 24 month period for the Flames. One would hope that there would be at least a small period of time where burning that much draft capital would result in having a decent team. For the Flames, that was the first 45-50 games of the 2018/2019 season. But you lose that much draft capital and you are going to be bad more often than not 4-6 years after those trades. That 4-6 year period is where we are at now. Most teams like the Lightning burn all that capital when they are trying to (and actually do) win a Cup. Brad traded all that capital to get a team that could make the playoffs in 3 of the next 6 years.

Trading picks for Hamilton was not an issue. They got a young top pairing Dman who fit well within their team building window age wise and need-wise.

Trading picks for a defensive defenceman when one wasn’t really needed was not good, nor was it good when he turn out to be not as good as hoped. But if they’d gotten a good forward for the same price, it would have been fine.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Trading picks for Hamilton was not an issue. They got a young top pairing Dman who fit well within their team building window age wise and need-wise.

Trading picks for a defensive defenceman when one wasn’t really needed was not good, nor was it good when he turn out to be not as good as hoped. But if they’d gotten a good forward for the same price, it would have been fine.

Burning the 35th overall pick in a deep draft for a 31 year old goalie under contract for one more year after you were the 5th worst team in the entire league was another baffling move. Not sure if that was supposed to vault us to the Cup, but the smart money when you are that bad would be to continue building through the draft. But Elliott did vault us into a 4-way tie for 15th in the league. The next offseason Brad traded a first, two seconds and a third round pick in an effort to build off of that 15th place finish but it did not work out the first year and we finished 20th. But we did have a hot start the following year.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Burning the 35th overall pick in a deep draft for a 31 year old goalie under contract for one more year after you were the 5th worst team in the entire league was another baffling move. Not sure if that was supposed to vault us to the Cup, but the smart money when you are that bad would be to continue building through the draft. But Elliott did vault us into a 4-way tie for 15th in the league. The next offseason Brad traded a first, two seconds and a third round pick in an effort to build off of that 15th place finish but it did not work out the first year and we finished 20th. But we did have a hot start the following year.

Again, if Elliott had played to his historical stats, it would have been a decent trade. Or if Brad had gone for a different goalie.

The only thing I’m arguing against is the auto “trading picks = bad”. It’s all dependent on the return.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Again, if Elliott had played to his historical stats, it would have been a decent trade. Or if Brad had gone for a different goalie.

The only thing I’m arguing against is the auto “trading picks = bad”. It’s all dependent on the return.

No it would not, because nobody trades high picks, multiple times, when your team finishes 26th, 15th, 20th in the league. I doubt we will ever see a GM trade that many picks in that short of a time frame for a team that was that far away from being elite. It is a rebuild strategy that awful teams, like the Flames were from 16-18 have never used before. It got us from being a bottom ten team in the league up to a 5-12 team in the league for two years, but now that that has burned out likely back down to the bottom ten for awhile as we hopefully start accumulating talent again.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Trading picks for Hamilton was not an issue. They got a young top pairing Dman who fit well within their team building window age wise and need-wise.

Trading picks for a defensive defenceman when one wasn’t really needed was not good, nor was it good when he turn out to be not as good as hoped. But if they’d gotten a good forward for the same price, it would have been fine.

The bigger problem is Treliving actually thought Hamonic has the same value as Hamilton. Flaw in talent judgment right there. Add Neal, Brouwer, Elliot then it’s clear he is doesn’t know what good is .

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

The bigger problem is Treliving actually thought Hamonic has the same value as Hamilton. Flaw in talent judgment right there. Add Neal, Brouwer, Elliot then it’s clear he is doesn’t know what good is .

Right. He had a clear idea of what he wanted. He just muffed the choice every time. A big scoring RW wasn’t a bad idea. A solid goalie was a rational idea, coming off a season where goaltending cost them big time. It was either get a goalie or extend Hiller/Ramo/Ortio (none of whom ever played an NHL game thereafter) (and there was no one on the farm).

[1qqaaz]

There seems to be a problem with the pro scouts.
Isn't one of their primary roles to inform the GM on which players are actually good?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

There seems to be a problem with the pro scouts.
Isn't one of their primary roles to inform the GM on which players are actually good?

Pro scouting is a big issue IMO.

[cannon7]

Treliving's real failure as a GM is pro scouting. Pretty much the rest of the league knew what Hamonic was, hence why there were no takers when he initially requested a trade. It took dufus Treliving and his "pro scouts" to overpay for a rapidly regressing defensive defenceman a full two seasons since his last decent campaign. It was a trade that every other GM in the league looked around and asked: "This is the wizard? Really?"

But there's a long list of disastrous pro scouting. From James Neal, to Troy Brouwer, to Mason Raymond, to Brandon Bolig, to Jaromir Jagr, etc.

Now we have head scratchers like Simon, Leivo and Norstrom.

We hope Tanev and Markstrom pan out, but it likely won't be due to pro scouting knowing what they're doing and instead just plain dumb luck. Hell, without Peters recommendation, Ryan may not have been acquired.

If Treliving remains as GM, he should just stop acquiring pros. He has no idea what he's doing there. He should also just fire his pro scouting staff and buy a dart board with the savings.

[OutOfTheCube]

Scouting in general is a doofy waste of money, even amateur. You could just go in and pick the highest remaining player on the central scouting list with every pick and do just as good or better than every other team. There’s no dudes flying around Europe discovering diamonds in the rough anymore.

[TheSquatch]

And if Tod Button has to go, then so be it. It's 20 years or something he's been a big voice in all this stuff.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

Scouting in general is a doofy waste of money, even amateur. You could just go in and pick the highest remaining player on the central scouting list with every pick and do just as good or better than every other team. There’s no dudes flying around Europe discovering diamonds in the rough anymore.

You (ideally) have a pro scout in the room who knows James Neal is going to be a problem if he doesn't get top minutes, or that Troy Brouwer is a postseason flash in the pan and doesn't have the fundamentals, or that Brian Elliott was among the most protected goalies in the league in St. Louis, or that Jaromir Jagr is done, or that Mason Raymond is done, or that Brandon Bolig is waiver wire material, etc.

If that person was in the room when these dumb moves were made, Treliving didn't listen to them. Instead he repeatedly overpaid for a collection of misfits.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

And if Tod Button has to go, then so be it. It's 20 years or something he's been a big voice in all this stuff.

He's the Director Of Amateur Scouting. Not the Director of Pro Scouting.

Director, Pro Personnel: Derek MacKinnon
Pro Scout: Steve Pleau. It looks like he has been with the Flames since 2010.
Head European Pro Scout: Hakan Loob
Director, Amateur Scouting: Tod Button

They have 12 amateur scouts but only 1 NHL pro scout.