[News] Sean Monahan done for the season. Needs hip surgery. Will be ready for training camp

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Isn’t the real problem Monahan’s $6.3M cap hit then? If he didn’t cost so much for what he does, maybe Treliving could’ve found a half decent winger for Monahan to play with. He’s one of the most expensive players on the team and he doesn’t elevate the play of his wingers which is what a good center does. Andrew Mangiapane for instance I don’t think misses Monahan at all. 2 games back with Backlund + Nordstrom and he already has a goal and an assist. We can also come to the conclusion that Nordstrom and Ritchie are also a wash.

So, Brett Ritchie might be the casualty this season. But lets say Monahan plays with another league minimum scrub because that’s all they can afford due to this team’s poor cap situation. It’ll be the same story, just with a different name.

Monahan’s cap hit is in the ballpark of a lot of centres producing the way he does. It’s a pretty decent contract still.

[neo45]

If you want to get good hockey out of Monahan you basically need to have a great offensive winger to carry the puck and make plays and then also a great defensive winger to retrieve pucks, cycle, and win board battles

I think if he has a future here (assuming we don’t get good offers this off-season) the org needs to have a serious discussion about accepting the sunk cost and moving him to wing permanently. I see no reason why he can’t be JVR with faceoff skills moving forward

I still think the trade offers might not be as bad as we all think this offseason

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

The biggest concern I have for Sean Monahan is his inability to produce with Johnny Gaudreau. This latest stretch here isn’t much different from the stretch in 2016-17 when Gaudreau was injured. I recall the head coach almost healthy scratching Monahan in that 11 games Gaudreau was away.

I’ve made the comparison in the past that Monahan is a bit like James Neal. Obviously not as useless, but Monahan will always require a winger who can play with pace and drive up the ice with the puck. Monahan is simply too slow, not nimble and he cannot use his body to effectively shield the puck. So he will always need to defer to his 2 wingers to drive play and be the primary playmakers which is big problem because of how easy it is for the opposition to hone in and defend a single winger. It’s probably why Andrew Mangiapane works better with a Mikael Backlund than a Sean Monahan too.

I also dislike Monahan’s lack of variety in the goal scoring department. He scores the majority or his goals in front of the net or being completely wide open in the slot where he releases his extremely telegraphed wrist shot. Too easy and predictable to shut down as we’ve seen this season and even in parts of 18-19 and 19-20. If he had some breakaway speed or the ability to tip pucks or could generate his own shot from a distance, but I think he completely Flames out without Gaudreau.

Healthy scratch? Monahan was about .5 PPG in that little stretch (actually 10 games unless you are counting the half game in which Gaudreau left). Below his .75 career average at that point, but not scratch-worthy. In fact, he had a better November in the second half without Gaudreau than his first half with him. He was on a 3 game point streak right before Gaudreau came back.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Monahan’s cap hit is in the ballpark of a lot of centres producing the way he does. It’s a pretty decent contract still.

Yes, you can say that now. But what happens when Monahan scores 10 goals next season with 2 league minimum wingers while being subjected to playing 3rd line minutes? Darryl may be singing his praises in the media, but the 13 to 14 minutes he’s been playing some nights tells a different story. Some of those games were critical must win games as well and he had him playing less than 5 minutes a period.

I actually think the best thing for Monahan’s career at this point, is to request a trade. I could see him being permanently passed by Backlund just because the Mangiapane-Backlund chemistry alone. Playing 3rd line minutes with replacement level players isn’t going to help him next contract. Every Monahan fan should be praying for him to land in a situation similar to Sam Bennett in Florida because that might be the only thing that saves his next contract. If he goes to Buffalo for instance and forms some chemistry with Jeff Skinner or maybe Atkinson in Columbus. There are options for him.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Yes, you can say that now. But what happens when Monahan scores 10 goals next season with 2 league minimum wingers while being subjected to playing 3rd line minutes? Darryl may be singing his praises in the media, but the 13 to 14 minutes he’s been playing some nights tells a different story. Some of those games were critical must win games as well and he had him playing less than 5 minutes a period.

I actually think the best thing for Monahan’s career at this point, is to request a trade. I could see him being permanently passed by Backlund just because the Mangiapane-Backlund chemistry alone. Playing 3rd line minutes with replacement level players isn’t going to help him next contract. Every Monahan fan should be praying for him to land in a situation similar to Sam Bennett in Florida because that might be the only thing that saves his next contract. If he goes to Buffalo for instance and forms some chemistry with Jeff Skinner or maybe Atkinson in Columbus. There are options for him.

Gee I wonder if his time was limited because he had a hip issue? I noticed that he took very short shifts - I thought Sutter was limiting that line’s time, but Monahan may have been purposely limiting it.

I’m not a “Monahan fan” hoping for a trade so he can get lots of points. I’m not even a Monahan fan per se. I don’t criticize players or complement them because I like them or not. Or, like a lot of people here, because I think criticizing one guy helps another (there sure are a lot of Gaudreau supporters who hate Monahan).

I just push back against arguments I disagree with. That’s all. I can’t even tell you day to day who made them. I don’t care.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Yes, you can say that now. But what happens when Monahan scores 10 goals next season with 2 league minimum wingers while being subjected to playing 3rd line minutes?

Argumentum ad futurum. ‘Nothing that has actually happened supports my silly opinion, so I'm going to make up future events and pretend they are facts.’

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by neo45

If you want to get good hockey out of Monahan you basically need to have a great offensive winger to carry the puck and make plays and then also a great defensive winger to retrieve pucks, cycle, and win board battles

I think if he has a future here (assuming we don’t get good offers this off-season) the org needs to have a serious discussion about accepting the sunk cost and moving him to wing permanently. I see no reason why he can’t be JVR with faceoff skills moving forward

I still think the trade offers might not be as bad as we all think this offseason

I can't imagine much in the way of trade offers for player who's production dwindled to basically nothing at the end of the season and needs off season surgery. He had 8 points in his last 24 games, many of them with premium ice time and PP time.

Some of that will depend on the nature of the surgery which is unknown to us at this time. And how much his production was affected by his injuries. But I think he'll need to prove himself helthy first.

[Rick M.]

I’m hoping guys like Zary and Pelletier will be ready soon. It would be nice to fill some holes.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Healthy scratch? Monahan was about .5 PPG in that little stretch (actually 10 games unless you are counting the half game in which Gaudreau left). Below his .75 career average at that point, but not scratch-worthy. In fact, he had a better November in the second half without Gaudreau than his first half with him. He was on a 3 game point streak right before Gaudreau came back.

Do you not remember the story at all? I remember it being huge at the time. If memory serves, it went something like this, Monahan had a 5 game pointless streak about mid way into Gaudreau’s injury. With Monahan already in the dog house, Gulutzan goes up to him privately and says something to the tune of “I have every right to scratch you right now with the way you’re playing, but I’m going to demote you down to the 4th line instead.” So this was sometime in late November and they were on the road against the Islanders, Monahan ends up on the fourth line and comes out like a bat out of hell and ends up scoring the lone goal for the Flames. I think he had another good game in there somewhere and then Gaudreau came back shortly after.

But there is no doubt that Monahan was struggling during that period. I don’t think the stats tell the whole story. When the coach is demoting the #1 center to the 4th line, you can’t be playing too well.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Do you not remember the story at all? I remember it being huge at the time. If memory serves, it went something like this, Monahan had a 5 game pointless streak about mid way into Gaudreau’s injury. With Monahan already in the dog house, Gulutzan goes up to him privately and says something to the tune of “I have every right to scratch you right now with the way you’re playing, but I’m going to demote you down to the 4th line instead.” So this was sometime in late November and they were on the road against the Islanders, Monahan ends up on the fourth line and comes out like a bat out of hell and ends up scoring the lone goal for the Flames. I think he had another good game in there somewhere and then Gaudreau came back shortly after.

But there is no doubt that Monahan was struggling during that period. I don’t think the stats tell the whole story. When the coach is demoting the #1 center to the 4th line, you can’t be playing too well.

For what you say was a private conversation, you sure have details. But you are forgetting (a) his 2 point game almost right away when Gaudreau went out (b) that NYI game was followed by 2 more where he had points. I don’t see how he was 4th line when he scored either. Stajan was firmly the 4th line C. Jankowski played 10 minutes at C.

But whatever. It really doesn’t matter. You’ve got a narrative and don’t want to move off of it.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

3 weeks? He had Ritchie and Mangiapane for probably 3 weeks. He had Gaudreau and Ritchie for at least another month. And aside from Ritchie he had Simon, Leivo and a couple games of Bennett. It’s not like having a utility guy like Frolik, who can chip in - it’s a hole on 1/3 of the ice.

No one argues Monahan has been good - he hasn’t, not offensively anyway. But the RW issue was a real hindrance.

Trust me Monahan’s problem has little to do with Ritchie . That combo doesn’t work with anyone anymore

So you basically say fire Treliving ass for not able to put together a decent line?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Gee I wonder if his time was limited because he had a hip issue? I noticed that he took very short shifts - I thought Sutter was limiting that line’s time, but Monahan may have been purposely limiting it.

I’m not a “Monahan fan” hoping for a trade so he can get lots of points. I’m not even a Monahan fan per se. I don’t criticize players or complement them because I like them or not. Or, like a lot of people here, because I think criticizing one guy helps another (there sure are a lot of Gaudreau supporters who hate Monahan).

I just push back against arguments I disagree with. That’s all. I can’t even tell you day to day who made them. I don’t care.

How does that explain him playing 18 minutes in other games then? Honestly, the guy didn’t even look that injured out there, he was still putting forth more intensity and effort than a lot of other guys. I don’t generally question Monahan’s compete level or toughness or whether he wants to be here.

He just doesn’t do enough to help the Flames win in my opinion. The Flames are not a deep team, so they can’t have $6M dollar players not driving play and not doing their job. It’s the same reason I dumped on James Neal for an entire year and to a lesser extent Noah Hanifin. I think it’s very fair to be hard on Monahan especially because of the lack of value he brings to table. I will give him credit for working very hard on deficiencies and I can see him trying hard every night. But he struggles to score goals when the team needs him to and that’s his primary job. He also has a team worst -22 over the last 2 combined seasons and these are not things that contributes to the team winning games.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by troutman

Reminds me of Milos Raonic. Big weapon (sniper), lacks overall game, often injured.

Agility about the same too. Good analogy.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Argumentum ad futurum. ‘Nothing that has actually happened supports my silly opinion, so I'm going to make up future events and pretend they are facts.’

So how do you see Monahan’s next season going exactly? How does he get back to 30 goals playing with another Brett Ritchie or another Josh Leivo? The Flames don’t have the cap space to afford a playmaker on Johnny Gaudreau’s level.

Monahan generally scores his goals on the rush, being alone in the slot or a few feet in front of the net. So if Monahan struggles to rush the puck up the ice himself, who will help him with this task? Who will draw multiple defenders leaving him open in the slot and in front of the net?

Monahan’s struggles in goal scoring department is not due to this sudden hip injury because his struggles to score dates all the way back to 2019 when teams realized all they had to do was put a blanket over Gaudreau in the neutral zone and boom, top line completely nullified and that was with Lindholm playing on the right wing too.

Now Gaudreau and Lindholm have found a new linemate in Tkachuk and I don’t think they’ll ever look back. Teams have tried a variety of ways to stop them but they slice through it like a hot knife on butter. They score on the rush, on the cycle, while checking. They barely get hemmed in their own zone. That’s a what I would consider an unpredictable line and to me, that should be the standard for the second line too.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Monahan’s cap hit is in the ballpark of a lot of centres producing the way he does. It’s a pretty decent contract still.

You say this a lot.

$6.3 million for roughly 250th in the NHL in goals per 60 last I checked. Any other center earning that money for similar production is also not earning their contract. Unless they’re bringing a whole lot more to the table than 23 does.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

For what you say was a private conversation, you sure have details. But you are forgetting (a) his 2 point game almost right away when Gaudreau went out (b) that NYI game was followed by 2 more where he had points. I don’t see how he was 4th line when he scored either. Stajan was firmly the 4th line C. Jankowski played 10 minutes at C.

But whatever. It really doesn’t matter. You’ve got a narrative and don’t want to move off of it.

Well, it was all over the fan 960 radio because like I said, it was a big story at the time and why wouldn’t it be? You can dump on it and call it my “narrative.” But look at the facts, he played 12 minutes a game that night against the Islanders as team’s #1 center.

Also, if you want even more proof, here’s a news article that proves he was in the coach’s dog house and playing on the 4th line.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/calgaryh...6cbc63ef5/amp/

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

You say this a lot.

$6.3 million for roughly 250th in the NHL in goals per 60 last I checked. Any other center earning that money for similar production is also not earning their contract. Unless they’re bringing a whole lot more to the table than 23 does.

I’m (a) looking at centres, (b) looking at what they make and (c) looking at their production. What does Paul Stastny make? Schenn? RNH? Johanssen? DuChene? Larkin? Henrique? They have produced about the same as Monahan, make about the same, and he’s having a terrible year.

And I don’t think you look at one year out of a 6 year contract to determine value.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Argumentum ad futurum. ‘Nothing that has actually happened supports my silly opinion, so I'm going to make up future events and pretend they are facts.’

I see we’ve reached the “quoting Latin” stage of the off season.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I’m (a) looking at centres, (b) looking at what they make and (c) looking at their production. What does Paul Stastny make? Schenn? RNH? Johanssen? DuChene? Larkin? Henrique? They have produced about the same as Monahan, make about the same, and he’s having a terrible year.

And I don’t think you look at one year out of a 6 year contract to determine value.

Well your point is that its is a decent cap hit "still" so I'm not trying to re-litigate whether it was a good contract for the first few years. It's about now and forward, and how it affects his value to the club either on the roster on in a trade.

Of the players you mentioned, which are you suggesting "still" represent good value? Then it would be worth a comparison IMO.

There is a trend line for Monahan and if you are predicting he will return to previous from, then OK, but let's talk about that. IMO it's far from a given.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Well your point is that its is a decent cap hit "still" so I'm not trying to re-litigate whether it was a good contract for the first few years. It's about now and forward, and how it affects his value to the club either on the roster on in a trade.

Of the players you mentioned, which are you suggesting "still" represent good value? Then it would be worth a comparison IMO.

There is a trend line for Monahan and if you are predicting he will return to previous from, then OK, but let's talk about that. IMO it's far from a given.

The reason I say “still” is that Monahan has had, by any standard, his worst year ever, and he’s still scoring at the same pace as a whole bunch of guys at the same level of pay. There’s plenty scoring more who make more. There’s some who are on bargain contracts, like Scheifele or Barkov or Mackinnon that I don’t use much to compare.

Value is what the market says it is. Braden Schenn was sign to $6.5 just this season, after a 58 point season. Stastny was signed to $6.5 after a 40 point season. If RNH makes $6-7M next year after a 35 point season I guess we know.