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Old 05-13-2021, 05:01 PM   #81
Bill Bumface
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I too enjoy dismissing an entire electoral system based on one, cherry-picked, bad example out of dozens of functioning examples.
Just you watch. The Netherlands is moments away from rocket attacks due to proportional representation.
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Old 05-13-2021, 05:01 PM   #82
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Nm wrong thread.
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Old 05-13-2021, 05:03 PM   #83
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When did terrorists become militants and missiles become rockets?
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Old 05-13-2021, 05:10 PM   #84
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When did terrorists become militants and missiles become rockets?
Quoted for truth
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Old 05-13-2021, 05:13 PM   #85
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Pretty sure anything unguided is considered a rocket.
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Old 05-13-2021, 05:14 PM   #86
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You have zero idea on a) modern munitions used in this application and b) the geography of Gaza.

These sorts of attacks are generally contained to the one building and the ones adjacent at most. This isn't a firebombing of Dresden in response to the indiscriminate V2 attacks on London.

Gaza might be small but a warning gives more than ample time to get a city block away to avoid injury. You're acting like they're trapped in a meter square bubble (won't even go into the argument about all the non-urban farm land in Gaza, but that isn't even necessary to debunk your argument).
No doubt thats why 14 kids have been killed
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Old 05-13-2021, 05:21 PM   #87
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I too enjoy dismissing an entire electoral system based on one, cherry-picked, bad example out of dozens of functioning examples.

Do you ever actually debate in good faith?
What’s bad faith about pointing out that PR governments are almost always coalitions, and those coalitions often include fringe parties? It’s a widely recognized downside to PR systems.
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If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
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Old 05-13-2021, 05:43 PM   #88
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Just you watch. The Netherlands is moments away from rocket attacks due to proportional representation.
The Netherlands might not be the best example of a PR success story at the moment. They haven’t been able to form a government in months, and two far-right parties have enough seats to be kingmakers.
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If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
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Old 05-13-2021, 05:43 PM   #89
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No doubt thats why 14 kids have been killed
There are two separate types of attacks, ones where Israel targets buildings and others where they target people. In the attacks where they target people, they typically would not give a warning.

Estimating children killed is also tricky. Hamas has stated that they consider anyone over the age of 16 to be an adult, for the purpose of being a soldier. Most human rights groups define anyone under 18 as a child. So you have a 2 year gap where valid targets are counted as children. Of 87 Palestinian deaths, only 3 have been women. As a civilian has an equal chance of being both a woman or a man, this suggests civilian deaths have been happening but are low. 3 Israeli women have also died.
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Old 05-13-2021, 06:57 PM   #90
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Israel is no saint, I'll grant that, but literally nothing excuses sending indiscriminate rocket and drone attacks into civilian areas.

Hamas literally does this to get the heavy reprisal from Israel and drum up exactly this sort of support internationally. They're the real scum here and the poor Gazans are the ones who generally pay the price. Israel has no choice but to hit back, and Hamas has all of their infrastructure in civilian areas of the strip intentionally. How Gazans still support Hamas is beyond me
How many people have been killed by Hamas' indiscriminate attacks vs. how many have been killed by Israel's targeted attacks? Hamas uses indiscriminate attacks because that's all it can do. Israel uses disproportionate force because it can. Hamas would use disproportionate force if it could.

I can't blame or support either side's military approach to this - they are playing the cards they are dealt. The blame falls on leadership of both sides for not working towards a peaceful resolution to the whole issue. Personally I believe Israel has more control and responsibility for that but I don't underestimate the ability of Palestinian factions to derail it.
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Old 05-13-2021, 07:02 PM   #91
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Nice in theory, in practice the Arabs have the square root of bugger all and a trunk load of pictures of the olive orchard they used to own, in truth they were probably just as poor back in '66 but myths being what they are I'm sure in their minds they had a great life and it was all stolen (as it was), hard to get people to give up any hope of getting what was once theirs back again, would you give up? did the Jews?
They have a better chance of getting it back through peace than through war, so it wouldn't be giving up at all. The token violence they engage in isn't going to achieve a military victory. MLK and Gandhi weren't giving up on their ends when they chose non-violent means.

Last edited by SebC; 05-13-2021 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 05-13-2021, 07:10 PM   #92
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Does Nage Waza still post here? been waiting for him to pop in since couple posts in.

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Old 05-13-2021, 07:20 PM   #93
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They have a better chance of getting it back through peace than through war, so it wouldn't be giving up at all. The token violence they engage in isn't going to achieve a military victory. MLK and Gandhi weren't giving up on their ends when they chose non-violent means.
If you were facing an expansionist nation who is year-on-year taking your land no matter how "calm" things seem to be, it might be difficult to convince you to put down your arms, or to stop supporting those who are fighting.

There have been many periods of relative calm ever since Oslo, yet Israel has continued to take, expand, and expel.
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Old 05-13-2021, 07:47 PM   #94
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If you were facing an expansionist nation who is year-on-year taking your land no matter how "calm" things seem to be, it might be difficult to convince you to put down your arms, or to stop supporting those who are fighting.
Of course it's difficult, and it will take time. But it's the only winning move.
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Old 05-13-2021, 08:09 PM   #95
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Of course it's difficult, and it will take time. But it's the only winning move.
Bibi aint giving nothing back, Israel's endgame is to get rid of all of the Palestinians by making life in Gaza and the West Bank intolerable, it doesnt matter what Hamas does, they offered a cease fire yesterday through Russia and Israel rejected it, Israel wants war, Israel has always wanted war since '82, it wants all of the west bank, every last inch, it might let them keep Gaza but not the West Bank
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Old 05-13-2021, 09:39 PM   #96
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Bibi aint giving nothing back, Israel's endgame is to get rid of all of the Palestinians by making life in Gaza and the West Bank intolerable, it doesnt matter what Hamas does, they offered a cease fire yesterday through Russia and Israel rejected it, Israel wants war, Israel has always wanted war since '82, it wants all of the west bank, every last inch, it might let them keep Gaza but not the West Bank
You don't protest settlements by firing rockets at civilian areas randomly (which isn't what this latest cycle is about anyways), but either way, when you do, Israel rightfully isn't going to accept a ceasefire with most of Hamas' ability to launch and coordinate those attacks still in place. Its like trying to end a game before your opponent gets their turn - its not how it works.

Its a ridiculously predictable cycle of avoidable violence but sadly it will play out exactly like every one of these skirmishes that filled the first 15 years of the millennium. Israel hits back, does limited ground incursions to neutralize a few leaders, military sites in residential areas, takes out a bunch of tunnels, and then there is a cease fire. Rinse repeat again in a few months when Abbas restores the election and Hamas wants another boost.

Again, the ultimate loser are civilians on both sides, both in the lives lost and constant fear. The only answer long term is finding a way to stop Iran's support of Hamas until the people turn on them due to lack of funds/power. Until then, the people suffer.
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Old 05-13-2021, 09:40 PM   #97
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Bibi aint giving nothing back, Israel's endgame is to get rid of all of the Palestinians by making life in Gaza and the West Bank intolerable, it doesnt matter what Hamas does, they offered a cease fire yesterday through Russia and Israel rejected it, Israel wants war, Israel has always wanted war since '82, it wants all of the west bank, every last inch, it might let them keep Gaza but not the West Bank
C’mon. You cannot paint all of Israel with that statement. Certain extreme elements of the right, perhaps. Bibi will be gone soon.

At some point I do believe Israel is going to do what it takes to disarm Hamas in Gaza once and for all. Maybe this is finally that time.
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Old 05-13-2021, 10:13 PM   #98
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Israel expands more and more illegal settlements that are universaly condemned by the UN, US and kicks Arab people out of their homes in Jeruseluem that they've lived in since the 50s and continues on and on all the while telling everyone else to go pound sand.

I couldn't imagine the rage that people must have to be on the receiving end of those situations where the law is not available to help you. Imagine living in Gaza or the West Bank with all of the restrictions placed upon people, grinding poverty and just a big "F U" every time they turn around. It's like they are less than human.

A 2 state solution is clearly the answer, but the hate and sense of righteousness of so many leaders will never make it a reality.

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Old 05-13-2021, 10:33 PM   #99
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Letter to Trevor Noah from David Harris, CEO of the American Jewish Committee

https://flip.it/zHu4YC

I just watched your 10-minute monologue on the Israeli-Hamas conflict for your popular television program “The Daily Show” (May 11).

Frankly, it wasn’t easy viewing. In fact, I began talking back to the screen, but, obviously, to no avail, so I chose instead to write you this open letter.

You framed your comments quite cleverly by suggesting there were competing narratives out there, depending on who was doing the talking and the starting point of their version of history.

And then, as if nothing more than a curious third party, you waded into the debate, essentially assigning yourself a certain moral credibility because of your “non-combatant“ status.

But we are not entirely in a post-truth society yet, at least I hope not, where facts no longer exist and opinions rule the day, especially when catapulted into the public square by celebrity status and legions of admiring followers.

So, for example, when you assert that the British took the land from the Palestinians, not quite.

Actually, the British took the land from the Ottoman Turks, who had ruled there for centuries. Palestinians never had a sovereign state of their own. The Jews did, by the way, though that was vanquished by the Romans nearly 2,000 years ago.

But to fast forward, this conflict, at its heart, is about two competing national movements, and the only logical way to resolve it is by a negotiated settlement — two states for two peoples.

Simpler said than done, of course, and here we come to demonstrable facts, not simply personal opinions.

The UN recommended precisely such a two-state settlement as early as 1947. It was accepted by the Jews, rejected by the Arabs.

From 1948 to 1967, the West Bank, eastern Jerusalem, and Gaza were all in Arab, not Jewish, hands. A Palestinian state could have been created at any time. It wasn’t.

During 2000-1, Israel, joined by President Bill Clinton, offered a viable two-state accord to the Palestinians (incidentally, one of several offers in the past 20 years). They refused. That’s not my conclusion, but Clinton’s, as described in his autobiography, “My Life.”

Then we come to 2005, which has direct relevance to your monologue. Israel unilaterally withdrew its forces and settlers from Gaza, giving local residents their first chance in history to govern themselves, something Ottoman Turkey and Egypt had never done. By 2007, the Palestinian Authority was violently ousted and Hamas took control. It has wielded power ruthlessly ever since.

What exactly is Hamas, a point you skipped in your take on the Middle East?

It is a terrorist organization. That’s not a personal view. It is the formal designation of the United States and the 27-member European Union.

What’s the goal of Hamas, again missing from your comments? Israel’s annihilation and replacement by an Islamist regime. Those are frequently expressed and well-documented sentiments of Hamas leaders.

So you skip these relevant facts — the violent nature of Hamas, its doctrinal aims, or, for that matter, its split with the Palestinian Authority — and zero in on the current round of conflict, looking at it, above all, from the perspective of power ratios.

You bemoan the imbalance, asserting it’s not a “fair fight” because Israel is the stronger party.

You compare casualties, simplistically suggesting the side with the higher number is somehow automatically granted victim status.

You even try to offer a rationale for the Hamas actions by referring to threatened evictions of four Palestinian families in Jerusalem, failing to note that this is a longstanding legal issue in the Israeli court system.

You suggest that Israel triggered Hamas’s ire by harassing Muslims during Ramadan, which is a total misrepresentation of the facts, not to mention that Israel has repeatedly gone to great lengths to protect the right of worship for all faiths — something quite rare in that part of the world.

Let’s be clear: Hamas’s ire for Israel is permanent, as is its goal of one day dominating Palestinian allegiances not only in Gaza, but in eastern Jerusalem and the West Bank, as part of its larger strategy.

And you even try to compare the situation to your own childhood, recalling that your mother told you not to hit your younger siblings, even when provoked, because you were bigger and stronger.

Sorry, but your younger siblings were not plotting murder and wreaking societal havoc. You’re ignoring the true nature of Hamas, the fact that it’s been firing 1000s of missiles over the years, building cross-border terror tunnels, kidnapping Israelis, and foregoing development in Gaza to focus on damaging Israel.

You’re downplaying the trauma of millions of Israelis rushing to bomb shelters, caring for the elderly and disabled, and comforting traumatized children, as rockets fly overhead today and could strike anywhere, even with the Iron Dome anti-missile system in place.

You’re laudably concerned about children, but are neglecting the instrumentalization of Palestinian kids at the hands of a cynical Hamas regime that knows images of young victims will change the entire story for those who only see the photos, not the context.

And you sidestep a key question — what is Israel supposed to do under such circumstances, when your mother’s advice to you seems totally detached from the sober reality it faces? What would any country do, when the traditional tools of diplomacy — from conflict management to conflict resolution — don’t stand a chance with an ideologically and theologically driven Hamas?

Finally, allow me to stress one point. I don’t view this conflict simply as an endless debate to prove one side right and the other side wrong. Not at all. Rather, my decades-long involvement in the region, my many trips to Israel and the Arab world, including Palestinian territories, has one central dream — peace, enduring peace.

I believe that to be the quest of the vast majority of Israelis, among them my and my wife’s close family members. They have not experienced a single day of true peace since 1948, nor their families who were survivors of the Holocaust, refugees from communism, or victims of evictions from Arab countries.

Israel was not reborn to be in permanent conflict. The fact that six Arab countries now have normalized ties with Israel is a powerful reminder that peace is attainable, and that Israel is keenly on the lookout for partners.

One day, that peace will be realized, I pray, with the Palestinians. But it won’t happen as long as Hamas rules Gaza, clings to its genocidal goals, and snookers well-meaning people abroad to believe it’s the victim in a conflict, alas, of its own making.

Last edited by Manhattanboy; 05-13-2021 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 05-13-2021, 11:07 PM   #100
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C’mon. You cannot paint all of Israel with that statement. Certain extreme elements of the right, perhaps. Bibi will be gone soon.

At some point I do believe Israel is going to do what it takes to disarm Hamas in Gaza once and for all. Maybe this is finally that time.
You cant disarm them, they aint buying those rockets from Rocket 'R' Us or Dollarama, they are making them from bleach and fertiliser and various other household chemicals, and for every Hamas soldier the Israeli's kill 3 more will take their place, Palestinians arent joining Hamas because it looks like a bit of fun before they go to Uni' and then start a career, they have nothing else, they have nothing to lose, they have no future, this is a war of desperation, nothing Israel or Iran does, nothing Hamas does frankly will alter any of it, the poor desperate will still lash out at their oppressors whether they have support or not.

Nothing Israel does changes the equation for the Arabs, before the war they had no hope, after the war they will have no hope, if there was peace they will have no hope, nothing changes, they have nothing to lose except their lives and their lives are utter poverty stricken meaningless ####e.
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