Brad Treliving needs to go

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ @powderjunkie, I’ve had to let people move on as well. They didn’t leave thinking we were on the same page. Now *that* was a process

Fair enough. All hockey coaches know that 95% of them end up getting fired sooner or later, even Scotty Bowman. Trotz is the one guy that comes to mind where he simply finished his contracts in both NAS and WAS.

It's also a 'seasonal' job. In the real world, there are times when you might let a guy who's not really working out ride out the last few weeks of service (without rocking the boat) and then not bring him back. Maybe the firing was handled well, maybe it wasn't.

Plenty of evidence that there was a darkside to Hartley. Doesn't mean he didn't have great qualities, too. Maybe there's an alternate universe where keeping him for another season or two works out better, maybe it doesn't.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The stories about Hartley are not hearsay. They are statements by people who were there. Hearsay is “someone told me they saw X”. O’Brien, Sarich and Parker are saying “I saw X”.

That's the thing with me - I love Sarich. The other two? Not so much.


However, when Parker is complaining that Hartley wanted him to fill a role on the team, but he couldn't, what is Hartley supposed to do? Get Parker to suddenly play a strong 200ft game? Parker was just a goon in the league.



O'Brien - end of his career. Maybe Hartley was ragging on Sven, but it was also a mixture of things with Sven. Feaster was keeping him up on the team to showcase his 'golden boy' pick, but he was useless and disinterested in playing hard, especially in the defensive and neutral zones. I remember getting roasted a bit for noticing and calling it out. I would find it difficult to imagine that Hartley didn't bring this up numerous times, and probably went to far once or twice. Sven was lazy and disinterested. I remember Hartley taking a strip off of Backlund too for not covering for a D-man that was pinching, which led to an odd-man rush.



Sarich - end of his career. The one story that he did share was when he was a healthy scratch for like 10 straight games, so the night before a game he said 'screw it' and went golfing and had a few bears. Hartley found out about it, and inserted him into the lineup, then took him out.


I don't know... to me, these examples aren't very solid. I am sure Hartley is one of the tougher and more demanding coaches out there, and I am sure he has gone too far sometimes as I believe most coaches have. However, at least he isn't Peters being racist and kicking guys in the back, or Crawford kicking guys..


Sarich and O'Brien are definitely going to dislike Hartley more as it was THIS coach that they saw 'ending their careers'.


I don't doubt that Hartley had to go. Coaches like him wear out their welcome sooner or later. Heck, even the players' coaches wear out their welcomes too. That's ok. I personally won't disagree with that decision, and at the end of the day, a GM gets to pick his coach. I said as much after Hartley got fired, and I also said that I thought "the clock" was officially started on Treliving's tenure.


Treliving went on to hire 3 consecutive terrible coaches in a row.
Treliving then spent a lot of draft capital on a rebuilding team.
Treliving spent to the cap every year (and beyond, fixing his poor contracts with buyouts)


And what has he accomplished? Since the Hartley era 2nd round (some call it fluke) season, he has this team winning 3 playoff GAMES IN TOTAL. Not series. Games. In 6 subsequent years, with a team that looks like it is trending down quickly and in need of a rebuild.


Does anybody here still trust 'the process'? Anybody here think that Treliving has been doing a good job. I used to rationalize a lot of his mistakes. I still 'believed' in this team.



For me, he took over a team that showed promise, but needed a lot of work.


It became a paper tiger at its' peak - 2nd overall in the NHL, but went out like a whimper in the playoffs.


Unlike the other team that year that got embarrassed, the Flames never showed themselves to be a good team since. The other team that was embarrassed has since won a cup and is categorically a top team.



Now, we can only hope that the incoming retool will change the fortunes around, but I would bet this team probably needs to be rebuilt.


Oh how I long for the days of 'unsustainability', an exciting 'never say die' team, a playoff round win, and a tonne of promise.



Now they Flames are the exact opposite. Sustainable hockey, a team that rolls over and plays dead at the first hint of trouble, not even a playoff team, and very little to hope for.

[GioforPM]

Well, Parker had concussions and Hartley was trying to make him fight anyway. And threatening him with the minors if he didn’t. That’s offside.

The other guys, fine, don’t believe them. But what you are doing is dismissing multiple stories from multiple sources. Plus Sarich’s claim that numerous players have Hartley on their no trade clauses. And the story about Flames exit interviews after his last season. So everyone had an axe to grind about Hartley, who despite a cup has always had trouble getting NHL jobs? There’s a lot of smoke around Hartley. It’s a stretch just to claim it’s sour grapes from all these guys.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, Parker had concussions and Hartley was trying to make him fight anyway. And threatening him with the minors if he didn’t. That’s offside.

The other guys, fine, don’t believe them. But what you are doing is dismissing multiple stories from multiple sources. Plus Sarich’s claim that numerous players have Hartley on their no trade clauses. And the story about Flames exit interviews after his last season. So everyone had an axe to grind about Hartley, who despite a cup has always had trouble getting NHL jobs? There’s a lot of smoke around Hartley. It’s a stretch just to claim it’s sour grapes from all these guys.

Parker always had a choice but he wanted to get paid. If I had health problems and showed up to work every day only to say I couldn't or didn't want to do the duties prescribed, I would get fired pretty quick.

When you're a coach and keeping your job and being able to get one in the future relies on other people pulling their weight, it's a lot of pressure too. Don't blame the coach, blame the GMs and owners that fire coaches willy nilly.

[nieuwy-89]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Yet Buffalo, New Jersey, Anaheim, Ottawa and Florida (for many years) do have the fanbase and economy to do this?
In 2019-2020, the Flames were 6th/31 in average attendance. In fact, from 2010 to 2020, the Flames were 6th/7th almost every year.
All of the other teams I just listed were in the bottom 12 last year.

Even Edmonton doesn't compare to Calgary economically.
Calgary's total GDP in 2021: 129,953
Edmonton's total GDP in 2021: 96,107

Calgary economy is more than 30% larger... In fact, Calgary's GDP is almost as high as the metro-Vancouver area (145,892).

If the team doesn't want to rebuild, it's an ownership problem, not a fanbase/city problem.

New Jersey, Anaheim, and South Florida are huge markets compared to Calgary. But Buffalo and Ottawa are good comparators.

I hope you are right, but it would break my heart to see the Dome not full when the pandemic is behind.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Parker always had a choice but he wanted to get paid. If I had health problems and showed up to work every day only to say I couldn't or didn't want to do the duties prescribed, I would get fired pretty quick.

When you're a coach and keeping your job and being able to get one in the future relies on other people pulling their weight, it's a lot of pressure too. Don't blame the coach, blame the GMs and owners that fire coaches willy nilly.

Oh, come on. Parker said I have some concussion issues, I can’t fight today and Hartley said fight or go to the minors. I can certainly blame him for that.

One story is he said she said. Two is “maybe that guy has issues with some players”. Hartley has a lot more than that. So everyone is lying or he’s a bigger jerk than almost any coach I’ve seen.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, Parker had concussions and Hartley was trying to make him fight anyway. And threatening him with the minors if he didn’t. That’s offside.

The other guys, fine, don’t believe them. But what you are doing is dismissing multiple stories from multiple sources. Plus Sarich’s claim that numerous players have Hartley on their no trade clauses. And the story about Flames exit interviews after his last season. So everyone had an axe to grind about Hartley, who despite a cup has always had trouble getting NHL jobs? There’s a lot of smoke around Hartley. It’s a stretch just to claim it’s sour grapes from all these guys.

It is not that I don't believe them - on the contrary, I ABSOLUTELY DO BELIEVE them. You are a lawyer, so let's hit this one at a time.


Parker - undoubtedly the most severe transgression. Put yourself in Hartley's shoes at that time. CTE wasn't a thing then - nobody knew about it. If Hartley wants Parker to play and fill that role, it is because the medical staff cleared Parker to play. So what is Hartley supposed to do? Either Parker plays - who, once again, was obviously cleared by the medical staff to play - or Hartley has the responsibility of replacing that player with someone else who can fulfill that role. In today's world, it is 100% out of line, but back then? Who was talking about CTE? Doctors sure wouldn't, and neither was anyone else involved in hockey.


Sarich - the only thing I have heard Sarich talk about was that golfing incident. Horrible mind games? Or was Sarich just a poor fit and who didn't get the ice-time that he felt he deserved? Once again, I loved Sarich and I wanted him to get more ice time, but with how the Flames were trying to be a quick transition team, he really didn't fit. Was it really mean of Hartley to insert Sarich into the lineup after he found out about the golf and beers evening? I get what Sarich is implying with it, but has to be really low on the 'abuse' spectrum.


O'Brien - this is the most credible thing, but again, Baertschi was not giving an effort out there. We as fans saw this night-in and night-out. I would like to know WHEN this happened. I remember Burke at the press conference pretty much destroying Baertschi, but he was also spot-on. So Baertschi started crying when Hartley said what he did, but what exactly did he say? It is hard to make a judgment call on something like this without knowing what was said, and even what Hartley's reaction to it afterwards was. On top of this, O'Brien was at the end of his career and probably wasn't happy with his lack of playing time too.


I am not privy to the exit-interviews, but again, who exactly is making what statements? What is being said? Is Hartley a monster? Or is he a tough, hard-assed coach that was starting to get grating? Is he a tougher coach than most? Or is he a monster?


I don't believe he is a monster, but I do believe he is one of the tougher coaches. Brent Sutter was voted as the toughest coach one year too in the player's surveys.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Oh, come on. Parker said I have some concussion issues, I can’t fight today and Hartley said fight or go to the minors. I can certainly blame him for that.

One story is he said she said. Two is “maybe that guy has issues with some players”. Hartley has a lot more than that. So everyone is lying or he’s a bigger jerk than almost any coach I’ve seen.

It's the team doctors who are responsible to diagnose him and the GM to put him on IR. The fact they didn't do that shows that they expected Parker to play and do his thing. He wasn't exactly good at anything else. If Hartley doesn't convince him to do it, he wouldn't have been doing his job and would have been judged if the team lost. He was doing what he was hired to do. A culture change was needed, but it starts at the top. It's a classic case of don't hate the player, hate the game.

[boogerz]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Yet Buffalo, New Jersey, Anaheim, Ottawa and Florida (for many years) do have the fanbase and economy to do this?
In 2019-2020, the Flames were 6th/31 in average attendance. In fact, from 2010 to 2020, the Flames were 6th/7th almost every year.
All of the other teams I just listed were in the bottom 12 last year.

Even Edmonton doesn't compare to Calgary economically.
Calgary's total GDP in 2021: 129,953
Edmonton's total GDP in 2021: 96,107

Calgary economy is more than 30% larger... In fact, Calgary's GDP is almost as high as the metro-Vancouver area (145,892).

If the team doesn't want to rebuild, it's an ownership problem, not a fanbase/city problem.

I agree that it's definitely an ownership problem if the Flames are moved, but let's not underplay the fact that there are a number of large US cities that are "untapped" markets for hockey in the US.

If we're only looking at GDP, Calgary is on par with middleweight US metro areas like Columbus, Nashville, Las Vegas, and San Antonio - somewhere around the 35-40th most economically powerful metro area in the US.

If push came to shove and the NHL or Edwards felt like the long-term investment wasn't worth it, approval would easily be given to move the team to Atlanta, Houston, San Antonio, Portland, Kansas City, Milwaukee, or somewhere else.

It would be stupid to move the Flames, but Bettman and Edwards are both incredibly petty (albeit successful) businessman that would move a team based on principle.

[InternationalVillager]

I’m down for the Flames to move if we’re just going to be perpetually mediocre. Frees up a lot of time and perhaps we can start fresh with an expansion team in the future. This ownership group doesn’t have a clue.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

I’m down for the Flames to move if we’re just going to be perpetually mediocre. Frees up a lot of time and perhaps we can start fresh with an expansion team in the future. This ownership group doesn’t have a clue.

This is such a ridiculous comment. No one is forcing you to cheer for this team. Thinking that an expansion team would be just around the corner is delusional if the Flames go there won’t be another team coming.

It won’t happen anyway the building will go up and with that another 30 year commitment from the team to the city.

[1qqaaz]

InternationalVillager said "if we're just going to be perpetually mediocre."
Would you remain a fan if you somehow knew that the Flames would continue to be mediocre for another 30 years?

I wouldn't.

Even the craziest Flames fans are starting to get cold on the team.
I've seen every game so far this year, but I definitely don't watch as closely as I used to.
I honestly would probably pay more attention if the Flames were in last place. At least we'd know that in the next year the Flames would probably improve. The following year, we'd have a fun top prospect to watch.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It's the team doctors who are responsible to diagnose him and the GM to put him on IR. The fact they didn't do that shows that they expected Parker to play and do his thing. He wasn't exactly good at anything else. If Hartley doesn't convince him to do it, he wouldn't have been doing his job and would have been judged if the team lost. He was doing what he was hired to do. A culture change was needed, but it starts at the top. It's a classic case of don't hate the player, hate the game.

Team doctors? Look at when this happened. Look at what happened to Sheldon Souray. At the time doctors had little to do with it.

As for doing his job, it’s actually always been wrong for a coach to tell a player to fight when he doesn’t want to. Parker wasn’t saying “I will never fight” either. He was saying “I can’t fight tonight”. It wasn’t even in a game after something ji happened on ice.

Sarich had a lot too say and not just about the one incident. Like the NTCs. But again, what you are doing is trying to pick apart numerous claims instead of thinking “wow, why are there so many anti-Hartley players”? It’s funny, no one here calls Commodore a liar or exaggerator when he talks about Babcock. I think people just don’t want to believe things about Hartley and bend over backwards to dismiss the stories of people who have zero reason to come forward and lie.

ETA: There have been plenty of tough coaches who players didn’t like personally. Bowman, Sutter, Keenan, etc. Heck, even Badger’s personality rubbed some players the wrong way. But you didn’t get these kind of stories.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

InternationalVillager said "if we're just going to be perpetually mediocre."
Would you remain a fan if you somehow knew that the Flames would continue to be mediocre for another 30 years?

I wouldn't.

Even the craziest Flames fans are starting to get cold on the team.
I've seen every game so far this year, but I definitely don't watch as closely as I used to.
I honestly would probably pay more attention if the Flames were in last place. At least we'd know that in the next year the Flames would probably improve. The following year, we'd have a fun top prospect to watch.

Speak for yourself.

Some people are clamouring for a rebuild, but I would think this type of perspective is exhibit A on why it is unappealing to ownership. If a certain percentage of the fan base can’t stomach one year (as screwed up as this year has been) of disappointment, then why would the owners willfully set themselves up for 3,5 or 7 years of it?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Speak for yourself.

Some people are clamouring for a rebuild, but I would think this type of perspective is exhibit A on why it is unappealing to ownership. If a certain percentage of the fan base can’t stomach one year (as screwed up as this year has been) of disappointment, then why would the owners willfully set themselves up for 3,5 or 7 years of it?

It hasn't been one year. It's been decades of mediocrity. Fans just want the organization to do a proper rebuild. They have been horrible this year in a season they expected to make the playoffs and contend. Fans can tolerate an organization that's honest with where their team is at but that's not what's happening with the Flames. If they trot this mess out next season with mission of winning a cup they run the risk of 90's apathy setting in as it's pretty clear that fans cannot stomach an organization that's getting worse when they believe they can compete. Few people in this city are even following them right now.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Speak for yourself.

Some people are clamouring for a rebuild, but I would think this type of perspective is exhibit A on why it is unappealing to ownership. If a certain percentage of the fan base can’t stomach one year (as screwed up as this year has been) of disappointment, then why would the owners willfully set themselves up for 3,5 or 7 years of it?

Yeah this era is in my mind worse than the Young Guns era. Those teams were just flat out terrible, but at least had some likeable players that gave it their all every night. I just can't give a flying f to cheer for Monahan, Gaudreau, Giordano or Tkachuk. They're all ok players, but they're all so bland and gutless.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It hasn't been one year. It's been decades of mediocrity. Fans just want the organization to do a proper rebuild. They have been horrible this year in a season they expected to make the playoffs and contend. Fans can tolerate an organization that's honest with where their team is at but that's not what's happening with the Flames. If they trot this mess out next season with mission of winning a cup they run the risk of 90's apathy setting in as it's pretty clear that fans cannot stomach an organization that's getting worse when they believe they can compete. Few people in this city are even following them right now.

Point taken, but during the mid 2000's the Flames were a legitimate playoff team and probably should have been contenders from 2006 to about 2009. It's a shame they lost 2005. During the early 90's the Flames fell short. They should have challenged for at least one more cup during this time. It's difficult to comprehend how they didn't. In both of these era's the Flames should have accomplished more. It sucks, but they are hardly the only professional sports team who didn't capitalize on their window.

So although I won't argue that they haven't been mediocre, stepping out of that mire isn't as simple as 'tank and rebuild'. I would imagine the Flames are sophisticated enough of an organization to understand the market and what the implications, pros and cons, of a flow blown rebuild are. There's likely good reason for their actions beyond stubbornness. It's not a coincidence this team has picked once in the top five in its history.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a true rebuild, but I don't think it is likely to happen. Although, given this weeks events, I would be in favour of JD coming in as a POHO with an eye towards setting the stage for the new area in 2024 or 2025. He seems to have the track record to set the direction....still, seems unlikely to me.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Oh, come on. Parker said I have some concussion issues, I can’t fight today and Hartley said fight or go to the minors. I can certainly blame him for that.

One story is he said she said. Two is “maybe that guy has issues with some players”. Hartley has a lot more than that. So everyone is lying or he’s a bigger jerk than almost any coach I’ve seen.

Well, in terms of your statement about everyone lying, we can look at you, if you like.

Here is an example.

In the article, Parker says there were times he was banged up and told Hartley he needed a night off. He cited an example where he thought he had a broken foot and Hartley told him Hershey would love him. Parker talked about being a rookie under Bob, and being too intimidated to talk back

In a separate statement in the article, Parker (retired at the time of the article), estimates that he had 25 or 30 concussions


Your version is that Parker told Hartley he couldn’t fight because of concussion issues and then Hartley threatened him with demotion

That’s not truthful based on the available evidence

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Well, in terms of your statement about everyone lying, we can look at you, if you like.

Here is an example.

In the article, Parker says there were times he was banged up and told Hartley he needed a night off. He cited an example where he thought he had a broken foot and Hartley told him Hershey would love him. Parker talked about being a rookie under Bob, and being too intimidated to talk back

In a separate statement in the article, Parker (retired at the time of the article), estimates that he had 25 or 30 concussions


Your version is that Parker told Hartley he couldn’t fight because of concussion issues and then Hartley threatened him with demotion

That’s not truthful based on the available evidence

That was my recollection of the story. If I’m wrong, my bad. It seemed pretty clear what he was getting at. He still had a point, even if it wasn’t concussions.

Now do Sarich, O'Brien, et al. I know you want to think the best of Hartley but there’s too much smoke for me. Name another cup winning coach that has had as little traction in the league. Even Crawford has had more gigs and is at least still an assistant.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Yeah this era is in my mind worse than the Young Guns era. Those teams were just flat out terrible, but at least had some likeable players that gave it their all every night. I just can't give a flying f to cheer for Monahan, Gaudreau, Giordano or Tkachuk. They're all ok players, but they're all so bland and gutless.

Really? I don't look back on that era fondly at all. who were the likable characters during the young guns era? Hnatt Domenachelli? Derek Morris? Joel Bouchard? Jamie Allison?......sure there was Iggy and I guess Val Bure was married to that girl from Full House, but pretty bleak overall. Not only that, the Flames hired a radio executive from Vancouver to be the President. His job was to create a family oriented experience, which meant when the whistle blew we heard 'splish splash I was taking a bath'. It was a terrible, terrible time. There's no redeeming quality to be spoken to about here, the only good thing to be said is they survived and the team is still here.

As far as this iteration of the team goes, we're a little too close to it at the moment. awfully easy to see the faults of the team, more difficult to see the positives. I do think this team is better than what they have shown. They were a consensus pick to make the playoffs, as far as I recall. If there is a silver lining is that there should be no doubt now that change, significant change, to this roster is required.