I may have missed it somewhere, but what are some of the things specifically? I read that a lot, but no one ever says what they are, other than threatening to have players sent down.
For me it's simply about where the line is for what coaches can and should do to motivate players. I think some of the things we have heard about Hartley are over that line. They may have been OK at one point, but not anymore.
Not everything has to turn into an argument about those other things you are bringing up.
I’m not sure what you are talking about. Did you want to just give me a list of things you would like me to say?
And as for ‘the line’, please enlighten me on what exactly you know about his time here.
Scratching guys for being hungover is about professionalism and accountability so it’s not that.
We have heard very little about Hartley that is specific and substantive. I am aware of the remarks by Scott Parker (threat of demotion and smelling chocolate fumes) and Sarich (can’t reverse the puck in his own zone), and something about being hard on Sven for being lazy and Shane O’Brien speaking up and Bob saying something to him
Tanguay endorsed him when hired, talked about how they regularly spoke and said he was going to be well received here
When Sutter was hired, both Johnny and Monahan were saying that some of their best years in Calgary were for demanding coaches, and that’s something you want
We know of more people in the game who voluntarily helped Bob with his camp than we do of people who have said anything specific and substantive about him, from this one
Quote:
Other ex-players, such as Alex Tanguay, Joe Sakic and Mark Giordano have visited. Among the regular staffers are Eric Perrin, a forward during Hartley's tenure in Atlanta, and Paul Jerrard, a defenseman on the '97 Calder Cup team and, coincidentally, among the assistant coaches who were hired to accompany Glen Gulutzan, Hartley’s successor in Calgary.
Speaking of professionalism, we also know that ‘the Process’ didn’t even talk to Bob after he fired him
“I didn’t understand,” Hartley says. “[Treliving] said I got fired and I didn’t talk to him again. But whatever the reasons he’s giving, if you’re fired, you’re fired. It doesn’t matter. I don’t waste too much time with this. You have to turn around. When you’re going through a tough stretch as a team, you always tell your team that you have to be strong in the face of adversity, you have to show pride. As a coach, when you’re fired, it’s the same story.”
In fact, Bob said he was surprised that he wasn’t on the same page as Treliving, because of how much they were in regular contact. The fact that Tre didn’t talk to him after - well, what does that say about leadership, accountability and professionalism
So yeah, when I hear everybody talking about what a monster and bully he is, I find it interesting how strongly people judge based on a pretty small amount of info
Especially from those who are so impressed with the GM’s thoroughness, professionalism etc.
My opinion is that Tre has done a poor job with the team and deserves to go. It is not just the on ice product this year, it’s the culture. The buck ends with him. That’s on topic for this thread.
His bungling of coaches is a particular reason, and that is on topic,
People are discussing him and the coaches and they have very different standards for how much information they need in order to judge. It’s an observation based on what has been said in this thread.
So..
Do tell, what exactly is it that you want me to say?
Last edited by DeluxeMoustache; 05-06-2021 at 04:09 PM.
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Just can't stop thinking about what a wasted season this was.
core players healthy (except Markstrom for a short stint)
Spending to the cap with key players on affordable contracts
The "lessons" of the last two playoff losses fresh in mind
Playing in a weak division
I was very optimistic when Sutter was hired that he would turn things around, they would squeak into the playoffs, and even win a round or two. The post-Sutter record says a lot about how this team is constructed and its ability to compete.
I hate the idea of a rebuild. They are messy. They often don't work (see Sabres, pre-McDavid Oilers). I don't think Calgary has the economy or hard-core fan support to financially weather an empty building for 3-4 years.
But I don't know what option the Flames have. The evidence is there - this core is done. Something is broken in that room. Bennett's break-out is evidence enough.
At this point, I hope the Flames do the following:
Shelve Markstrom, Gio, Monahan, and any players nursing injuries, for the remainder of the season.
Call up the kids and inject some life into the lineup. Give us a reason to watch the games.
After the season, I don't know what the answer is. But changes are needed and they need to be significant.
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Rebuilds not working are a myth. Name more than just Buffalo. Oilers languished not because they didn’t have enough high picks but because they has absolutely nothing else.
I’m not sure what you are talking about. Did you want to just give me a list of things you would like me to say?
And as for ‘the line’, please enlighten me on what exactly you know about his time here.
Scratching guys for being hungover is about professionalism and accountability so it’s not that.
We have heard very little about Hartley that is specific and substantive. I am aware of the remarks by Scott Parker (threat of demotion and smelling chocolate fumes) and Sarich (can’t reverse the puck in his own zone), and something about being hard on Sven for being lazy and Shane O’Brien speaking up and Bob saying something to him
Tanguay endorsed him when hired, talked about how they regularly spoke and said he was going to be well received here
When Sutter was hired, both Johnny and Monahan were saying that some of their best years in Calgary were for demanding coaches, and that’s something you want
We know of more people in the game who voluntarily helped Bob with his camp than we do of people who have said anything specific and substantive about him, from this one
Speaking of professionalism, we also know that ‘the Process’ didn’t even talk to Bob after he fired him
In fact, Bob said he was surprised that he wasn’t on the same page as Treliving, because of how much they were in regular contact. The fact that Tre didn’t talk to him after - well, what does that say about leadership, accountability and professionalism
So yeah, when I hear everybody talking about what a monster and bully he is, I find it interesting how strongly people judge based on a pretty small amount of info
Especially from those who are so impressed with the GM’s thoroughness, professionalism etc.
My opinion is that Tre has done a poor job with the team and deserves to go. It is not just the on ice product this year, it’s the culture. The buck ends with him. That’s on topic for this thread.
His bungling of coaches is a particular reason, and that is on topic,
People are discussing him and the coaches and they have very different standards for how much information they need in order to judge. It’s an observation based on what has been said in this thread.
So..
Do tell, what exactly is it that you want me to say?
Do you really think Sarich was referring to not being able to pass backwards when he talked about 'mental warfare' compared to Keenan?
I'm not sure anyone is calling for Hartley to be cancelled, but people are simply pointing out that it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows.
If you want to argue that the complex human being named Bob Hartley is a better hockey coach than the complex human being name Brad Treliving is a hockey general manager, that's fine. But you're just being silly.
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There is nothing wrong with rebuilding as a concept. If it fails, it's because management and scouting staff failed. There are several examples of it working. In fact, I would say most teams that win the Cup, do so after a rebuild. There are very few that sign and trade their way to a championship. You need those top picks.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
Next tab open was the article about Bob...the idea of BT not talking to Hartley again after he was fired doesn't seem the least bit weird to me. I've never been fired, so I wouldn't know. I've had to let a few people go though...am I the weird one for not calling them up to chat a few days later? Or to make sure they are still crystal clear on the reasons they were fired?
Just can't stop thinking about what a wasted season this was.
core players healthy (except Markstrom for a short stint)
Spending to the cap with key players on affordable contracts
The "lessons" of the last two playoff losses fresh in mind
Playing in a weak division
I was very optimistic when Sutter was hired that he would turn things around, they would squeak into the playoffs, and even win a round or two. The post-Sutter record says a lot about how this team is constructed and its ability to compete.
I hate the idea of a rebuild. They are messy. They often don't work (see Sabres, pre-McDavid Oilers). I don't think Calgary has the economy or hard-core fan support to financially weather an empty building for 3-4 years.
But I don't know what option the Flames have. The evidence is there - this core is done. Something is broken in that room. Bennett's break-out is evidence enough.
At this point, I hope the Flames do the following:
Shelve Markstrom, Gio, Monahan, and any players nursing injuries, for the remainder of the season.
Call up the kids and inject some life into the lineup. Give us a reason to watch the games.
After the season, I don't know what the answer is. But changes are needed and they need to be significant.
Yet Buffalo, New Jersey, Anaheim, Ottawa and Florida (for many years) do have the fanbase and economy to do this?
In 2019-2020, the Flames were 6th/31 in average attendance. In fact, from 2010 to 2020, the Flames were 6th/7th almost every year.
All of the other teams I just listed were in the bottom 12 last year.
Even Edmonton doesn't compare to Calgary economically.
Calgary's total GDP in 2021: 129,953
Edmonton's total GDP in 2021: 96,107
Do you really think Sarich was referring to not being able to pass backwards when he talked about 'mental warfare' compared to Keenan?
I'm not sure anyone is calling for Hartley to be cancelled, but people are simply pointing out that it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows.
If you want to argue that the complex human being named Bob Hartley is a better hockey coach than the complex human being name Brad Treliving is a hockey general manager, that's fine. But you're just being silly.
Meh, I was saying the bar for judging his character is a lot of hearsay with little fact
I find it interesting the defence that others with bad results get, with all of the hand waving and the ‘we just don’t know all of what goes on behind the scenes’
There’s way more in the way of heads nodding towards each other on this site about what a #### person he is than on the rest of the internet combined
I don’t know why that’s such a big deal
And hell yes, Hartley is a better coach than Treliving is a GM. That’s blatantly obvious
Meh, I was saying the bar for judging his character is a lot of hearsay with little fact
I find it interesting the defence that others with bad results get, with all of the hand waving and the ‘we just don’t know all of what goes on behind the scenes’
There’s way more in the way of heads nodding towards each other on this site about what a #### person he is than on the rest of the internet combined
I don’t know why that’s such a big deal
And hell yes, Hartley is a better coach than Treliving is a GM. That’s blatantly obvious
Any goaltending tips for Koskinen? 4 for 4...NHL record.
The stories about Hartley are not hearsay. They are statements by people who were there. Hearsay is “someone told me they saw X”. O’Brien, Sarich and Parker are saying “I saw X”.
