[PGT] Habs 2 Flames 1 - Goodbye Playoff Hopes

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

He shouldn't be expected to produce offense 5 on 5?
That's not expecting him to even play a more complete game. That's expecting him to do the very thing he is supposed to be good at: offense.

He is expected to produce offense. But he has a limited game, when you have that guy as your "top guy" it's not surprising that he doesn't produce, he's incapable of carrying it on his own. On a well built team Gaudreau is third fiddle at most.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

He shouldn't be expected to produce offense 5 on 5?
That's not expecting him to even play a more complete game. That's expecting him to do the very thing he is supposed to be good at: offense.

He's tied for 2nd in 5on5 production. Where should his numbers be?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Gaudreau is not the highest paid player on the team, that honor goes to the guy who has fewer even strength points than Johnny.

Johnny was the highest paid player (tied with Gio) when he signed the deal. I took exception to the drive by that uses his draft position as an excuse to not criticize by stating the draft position is irrelevant once the player signed top money.

Don’t get me wrong Tkachuk is having a brutal season but he is 4.5 years younger than Johnny and has at least 1 more year of control so he is not as immediate of a concern when discussing the future. That can all change with an exit interview but I still think the organization views Tkachuk as part of the future. Not sure about Johnny.

Calling Monahan a huge bust when he leads his draft class in goals 8 years later is also something that irks me.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Gaudreau has been in on almost every goal lately with the season on the line. Yes he needs better line mates. If not here he will go elsewhere and put up 100.

You make it sound like players routinely put up 100 point seasons.

In the last 10 years or so, the list is surprisingly short, and it's for the most part the truly elite who have done so.

Johnny came very close, but hasn't sniffed it since.

The odds of him doing it once traded are likely pretty long, even with elite line mates.

[Flamesfan05]

Johnny is no even close to be the biggest problem on the team

Monahan and Tkachuk are

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

He shouldn't be expected to produce offense 5 on 5?
That's not expecting him to even play a more complete game. That's expecting him to do the very thing he is supposed to be good at: offense.

Johnny Gaudreau is the only bonafide first line forward on this team.

His centre’s primary moves are “give it to 13 no matter where he is or who’s covered” and “camp out in the high slot.”

His centre has never once stood up for him or protected him in any way, even though 13 is among the most abused players in the game.

What’s happening with Gaudreau is what happens when an organization acquires 0 first line players to help a 160lb left winger, and instead asks him to be the sole offensive weapon on a team in the NHL.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Stop depressing me with the truth
How do you even start to fix all that...

Well, you trade them, but not all at once. Fire sales have cheap prices. Gio you can keep around or trade at the TDL. Gaudreau is an issue by the start of the season.

You can maybe improve Tkachuk - better skating would work wonders. If so, he's young enough where he can contribute to a rebuilt team.

Look, all these players can be better. Monahan can get his hands back - that's his only issue right now - he's getting in decent position and just not making his shot. he's actually improved in other areas. Gaudreau can really work on adding some new things to his arsenal - go to the middle, try criss crossing to the right side. Tkachuk can finish better than he has been and make some better decisions.

You have a young D other than Tanev and Gio. Hanifin/Andersson and Valimaki is not a bad starting point, and Tanev's only issue is IMO health (not age). I also expect even more out of Mangiapane and Dube, but no more than second line type ceilings.

If you draft a top line C and another forward, and Tkachuk cures himself so you have a real top line, then you can have Lindholm, Dube and Mangiapane as a very dangerous second line. I still like Backlund, Lucic and Nordstrom for what they each bring. And if you can re-sign Ryan, whoever is on the 4th line is fine.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by automaton 3

Gaudeau seems to be shooting more this year and it paying off.


Monahan on the other hand does not seem to be shooting and is electing to pass. His release is (was?) elite but it seems quite diminished this year. I'm wondering if he is yet again injured.

His release hasn't been at the elite level he entered the league with for a long time now, at least a year. He's had both hip and wrist injuries, my guess is something like that has become a nagging issue, and that we're unlikely to ever see him return to form, at least in that part of his game.

I hope I'm wrong, but I can't really think of a situation when a guy has lost his shot like that and gotten it back after such a long time.

It would also help explain why Sutter hasn't been hard on him for not putting up the points he's expected to. It looks to me like he's trying to become more of a two-way forward, or even develop his game towards being more of a Backlund type... which would make sense for his career moving forward if he's not going to be putting up the points.

I'm no expert though, I'm just pointing out what I think I'm seeing.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Quit playing scared?

Stop with the turnovers time after time after time at the opposition blueline.

Quit flying the zone before the team actually has possession and actually play some defense.

Be engaged sometime before game 35 of the season?

He is as big a part of the problem on this team as anyone else and deserves no special treatment because he was really good 2 seasons ago. Same can be said for every core guy.

If he hasn't agreed to an extension by draft day, he must be traded. Period. Cannot let him walk for nothing even if you want him back to begin with.

You have been on and on about him but refuse to acknowledge the massive warts in his game.

First of all, in the Flames most important games this season, he hasn’t been playing scared, he’s been marvelous. He stepped up his game in a big way and made game breaking play after game breaking play. That goal he scored against Montreal on Saturday swung the game for the Flames when they were on the path to losing quite badly. He hasn’t received much help from his teammates in contrast which is the actual problem.

Secondly, the turnovers. If everyone gives you puck and expects you to do all the work to make things happen, then turnovers are going to happen. It would actually happen more often to anyone else not named Gaudreau. Do you think the opposition team is just going to lay down and die so Gaudreau can walk through them with ease. No, they’re going to double and triple team him. Just like yesterday on the powerplay, rewatch and pause right before Gaudreau makes his pass to Lindholm and just look at how many sticks and bodies are all hovered around just him. He still managed to make the pass giving Lindholm all day to pick his spot.

Also, he had 23 points in 25 games under Ward this season. So I guess you missed the first half of the season because he was the team’s leading scorer and still is in the goals department. It was Darryl’s arrival where he had the top line dumping and chasing every shift that sewered his production. He picked it up considerably once he moved onto a line with Lindholm-Tkachuk and they were generating on the rush again.

Lastly, yeah Gaudreau has his problems, like all the players on this team, he has faults. But the biggest problem the Flames have virtually every year is goal scoring. Taking away your most dynamic offensive player will only hurt this team’s chances to win. So if you’d like to see the Flames score 1 goal every night while trying to win 1-0 or 2-1, then by all means, trade Gaudreau. But this team will flat be one of, if not the most boring bubble playoff team in the league.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Itse

Gaudreau is a pass-first guy who leads the team in goals scored.

I think it's kind of obvious he's not the main problem with our offense.

Ironically, if Gaudreau finishes as the team’s leading goal scorer, this pass first player will have lead the Flames in goals for the 3rd time in his career. I believe that would be the same amount of times as Monahan and in less seasons too. Johnny Gaudreau is an extremely underrated goal scorer. Everyone always talks about Monahan’s ability to score goals, but I think Gaudreau is the better goal scorer between the 2 despite what the numbers may suggest.

[Manhattanboy]

Speaking of boring, Minnesota Wild just clinched a playoff spot. Jesus.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Speaking of boring, Minnesota Wild just clinched a playoff spot. Jesus.

Nothing boring about watching Kaprizov play.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Johnny was the highest paid player (tied with Gio) when he signed the deal. I took exception to the drive by that uses his draft position as an excuse to not criticize by stating the draft position is irrelevant once the player signed top money.

Don’t get me wrong Tkachuk is having a brutal season but he is 4.5 years younger than Johnny and has at least 1 more year of control so he is not as immediate of a concern when discussing the future. That can all change with an exit interview but I still think the organization views Tkachuk as part of the future. Not sure about Johnny.

Calling Monahan a huge bust when he leads his draft class in goals 8 years later is also something that irks me.

Well it shouldn’t irk you at all because Nathan Mackinnon is the leading goal scorer and point getter of their 2013 draft class. Look it up.

With that said though, Monahan definitely isn’t a bust, neither is Bennett in my opinion. Monahan is a pretty good center, but he was never a #1 center and shouldn’t be paid what he’s being paid. The biggest problem in the Treliving era in my opinion are how their centers slot.

They needed a big, elite, play driving #1 center to slot at the top, not Monahan or even Backlund. Lindholm is clearly the best of the 3, but if the Flames want to win a Stanley Cup, an Elias Lindholm would probably slot as your #2. Then the Flames could have themselves 2 legitimately dangerous scoring lines rather than just relying on 1 line to get it done at any one point which has always been the problem with this franchise dating all the way back to the Iggy and Theo eras.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Johnny Gaudreau is the only bonafide first line forward on this team.

His centre’s primary moves are “give it to 13 no matter where he is or who’s covered” and “camp out in the high slot.”

His centre has never once stood up for him or protected him in any way, even though 13 is among the most abused players in the game.

What’s happening with Gaudreau is what happens when an organization acquires 0 first line players to help a 160lb left winger, and instead asks him to be the sole offensive weapon on a team in the NHL.

Elias Zebulon Lindholm says hi.

Top line Fs: Johnny, Elias (neither elite)
Second line Fs: Monahan, Tkachuk (arguably worse rn)
Middle six Fs: Mangiapane, Backlund
Rest are depth / roster "fat"

Not good enough.

It should surprise no one that we struggle to score goals when needed.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Well it shouldn’t irk you at all because Nathan Mackinnon is the leading goal scorer and point getter of their 2013 draft class. Look it up.

With that said though, Monahan definitely isn’t a bust, neither is Bennett in my opinion. Monahan is a pretty good center, but he was never a #1 center and shouldn’t be paid what he’s being paid. The biggest problem in the Treliving era in my opinion are how their centers slot.

They needed a big, elite, play driving #1 center to slot at the top, not Monahan or even Backlund. Lindholm is clearly the best of the 3, but if the Flames want to win a Stanley Cup, an Elias Lindholm would probably slot as your #2. Then the Flames could have themselves 2 legitimately dangerous scoring lines rather than just relying on 1 line to get it done at any one point which has always been the problem with this franchise dating all the way back to the Iggy and Theo eras.

Fair enough MacKinnon passed Monahan recently. Not sure he is really overpaid considering considering he scored anywhere from 27-34 goals in the first 3 years of the deal. He sure has fallen off last year but agree far from a bust.

I don’t know if they need a big center. I would be happy with Brayden Point but I agree Monahan hasn’t filled the role of elite number 1 C but just hated that he was called a bust considering what he has done in terms of goals and points.

I can take the Bennett bust stuff even though he is not a bust in the sense that Yakupov or Juolevi are busts.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Johnny Gaudreau is the only bonafide first line forward on this team.

His centre’s primary moves are “give it to 13 no matter where he is or who’s covered” and “camp out in the high slot.”

His centre has never once stood up for him or protected him in any way, even though 13 is among the most abused players in the game.

What’s happening with Gaudreau is what happens when an organization acquires 0 first line players to help a 160lb left winger, and instead asks him to be the sole offensive weapon on a team in the NHL.

It happened with Iggy too. This organization relied on him to be the only offensive driver of the team and so when he was shut down, the Flames were basically shut down and everyone knew this. It’s the same story with Gaudreau a decade later.

This organization somehow manages to find these elite franchise wingers and they think that’s enough. We’ll just build around this one guy and bring forth these expensive, overpaid complimentary or secondary pieces like Brouwer and Neal or Jay Bouwmeester or a second rate center like Olli Jokinen and now the Flames are ready to contend. Only for this team to fall completely flat on their face and disappoint their fanbases time and time again.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Fair enough MacKinnon passed Monahan recently. Not sure he is really overpaid considering considering he scored anywhere from 27-34 goals in the first 3 years of the deal. He sure has fallen off last year but agree far from a bust.

I don’t know if they need a big center. I would be happy with Brayden Point but I agree Monahan hasn’t filled the role of elite number 1 C but just hated that he was called a bust considering what he has done in terms of goals and points.

I can take the Bennett bust stuff even though he is not a bust in the sense that Yakupov or Juolevi are busts.

True, I would take Brayden Point over any of our centers either. But in my mind, I was thinking more along the lines of Aleksander Barkov or a Leon Draisaitl. If the Flames had shat the bed more or traded up for Barkov, then maybe this team would be winning more playoff rounds instead of winning rounds of golf.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Elias Zebulon Lindholm says hi.

Top line Fs: Johnny, Elias (neither elite)
Second line Fs: Monahan, Tkachuk (arguably worse rn)
Middle six Fs: Mangiapane, Backlund
Rest are depth / roster "fat"

Not good enough.

It should surprise no one that we struggle to score goals when needed.

Lindholm is a centre.

He’s not a 1st line centre, at least not on a good team.

He could absolutely be the #2C behind a true franchise #1C, but if the expectation is “Zebulon is the #1”, well...

You see the result.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The same applies to a number of players. Should a 37 year old D man be the primary offence from the back end? Should a slow centre who is known for scoring be a 1C, facing top opposition and defence, and who is now doing what he's being asked and focusing more on D and puck carrying? Should a grinding LW who has decent hands and has been a good puck protector be the highest paid forward on the team, with the commensurate expectations? Should the offence revolve around a tiny LW who isn't overly fast and makes his living in open space?

There's only a few guys cut out for their roles, and none of those roles are top line.

Management has failed to put together a competitive NHL team, I think everyone would agree with that point.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Lastly, yeah Gaudreau has his problems, like all the players on this team, he has faults. But the biggest problem the Flames have virtually every year is goal scoring. Taking away your most dynamic offensive player will only hurt this team’s chances to win. So if you’d like to see the Flames score 1 goal every night while trying to win 1-0 or 2-1, then by all means, trade Gaudreau. But this team will flat be one of, if not the most boring bubble playoff team in the league.

While I agree with your overall point about Gaudreau, we're already one of the most boring bubble playoff teams in the league.

I'm going to repeat a couple of points I made in the Treliving thread:

This is the Treliving era in regular season points:

2014 77 points
2015 97 points
2016 77 points
2017 94 points
2018 84 points
2019 107 points
2020 on pace for 92 points
2021 on pace for 52-53 points (equivalent of 77 points in an 82 game season).

That's a 90 point team on average for the last four seasons, and that includes 2019 which is looking more and more like an anomaly. We're playing defense first hockey, and while Gaudreau might have drawn interest in his first seasons, no one is talking about him anymore.

We suck, we're boring, we have no cap space despite most of our top players being on their RFA contracts, we have one of the worst prospect pools in the league, we're probably not going to draft high and we don't have extra draft picks, and we have no superstar players to retool around.

Sure, Darryl Sutter can probably get more out of this team given more time, but I just don't think there's enough blood in this stone no matter how hard you squeeze.

I don't see a way up from here, we need to go down and try again.

This means getting those damned draft picks and not trading them away like Treliving keeps doing.

(Between 2014 and 2020, if you sum up all draft picks, the Flames have had
Two less 1st round picks than expected, two less 3rd round picks, one extra 4th round pick, and two less 5th round picks. Just looking at what the team was doing, an outsider probably couldn't even tell we had a rebuild.)

Now, the Flames organization are probably not going to do it because they're stubborn, fall too much in love with their players, and just love being mediocre, but to me this starts with trading Gaudreau. He's the guy that can bring in those sweet 2022-23 1st rounders, and at 27 with one more year on his very reasonable contract, even in the flat cap world, he's at about peak value.

Sure he might put up 100 points somewhere else, but he's not going to do it here anyway. Even if he stays, we don't have the support coming in for that kind of a season.

Let's not be Columbus. Hooray they swept Tampa because they didn't trade away their stars like Panarin with expiring contracts, but that was the sum total of their playoff success, while Tampa came back next season and won another cup. Now Columbus sucks again. (But at least they have three 1st rounders in the next draft, unlike us.)