American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by HockeyIlliterate

From what I’ve seen, I would prefer to see fewer (or no) internal fences within the facilities and softer beds, but other than that, no. They are being fed, housed, and some are getting some education, and I would think that they are in a better condition now than they were while they were being transported and, possibly, when considering the totality of circumstances, in their original home.

Sorry, I just have trouble believing anyone thinks it’s ok for thousands of children to be spending weeks in detention centres with a legal limit of 72 hours, sleeping under foil blankets on mats on the ground within touching distance from others, going days without showering, at best getting “adequate” food and at worst missing meals, with no education for most and play time only when the room they’re locked in is being cleaned (if at all), with a complete lack of Spanish speaking workers and people experienced with at-risk youth.

The Government says these places are no places for children. It’s one thing to argue that this is a temporary issue, or that people shouldn’t be coming because this is where they end up, but you’re actually arguing that you see nothing wrong with these facilities. How do you square that, morally? Is there any example, in any moment in history, where any decent human being has looked at conditions like this and thought “nothing wrong here”? I can name a handful of human beings the very opposite of decent. But go ahead and give me one good person who that can look at this and think it is ok. Your value of these children must be so small. Do you even see them as human? I don’t ask to agitate, I honestly want to know. Removing the situation they came from and not using “better” as a substitute for “acceptable, would you wish this on another human?

If this is your example of having put some thought into the issue, this is good proof that thought alone has no value.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Stupid suggestion I am sure but why can’t the US government post a website with all of these people’s names and locations and go super public with it. Then people who were separated may be able to find their kids name. You could just have a central database built now, after the fact, trying to connect families. Then deport them. Concurrently, reach out to government of Mexico to reach out to next of kin in Mexico to get uncles aunts family / friends to come get kids at the border.

Bad idea jeans? Just postulating. Better solution probably than just throwing them in cages with a mattress and some food?

Like, kids over the age of 3 should be able to tell you their name.

Remember where or what they might be escaping from. You can deport a person out of your country but that's about it, it's not your duty after that. And the uncles/aunts/family might be what they're running away from. Also immigration/refugee is big business, it's not free. People pay thousands to get into an organized party. Nobody gets to the border by themselves. Nobody wants to be sent back to find anyone after they've already decided to risk it for America.

[Mr.Coffee]

Okay but in defence of America here it’s not like it’s their obligation to just take the whole western hemispheres poor huddled masses either due to “moral obligation “ either, is it?

I put myself in their shoes for a minute. How many Canadians would be okay with just thousands and thousands of immigrants cruising on into the country ad nausem?

Are we saying there is no solution and if so I guess the best way to invade a country is just send your women and children in and hope for the best. People are “escaping” things but there needs be a line drawn on condemnation from the world as well as it’s not the USA’s duty to take everybody in because their own countries can’t get their #### together. I understand this is highly ignorant but big picture here it is not so black and white.

That’s why my solution of hey have you clowns put any effort into reuniting families? Because I haven’t seen much reported on that front and quite frankly it’s gotta be cheaper and better from a humanitarian perspective than jailing children and then borderline feeding them. This is a complex problem and I don’t think people are adequately framing things fairly.

Trump is an idiot but there is a reason why “the wall” got so much press. To dismiss those concerns from the average American is pretty disingenuous. It’s not outright in this thread but that is the tone and flavour I get from the left brigade on here. As if the US are just villains for not letting families stay together and find refuge in their country no holds barred. Separating families while maybe frowned upon does send a pretty compelling message not to fata around, I mean can’t really debate that one.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Okay but in defence of America here it’s not like it’s their obligation to just take the whole western hemispheres poor huddled masses either due to “moral obligation “ either, is it?

I put myself in their shoes for a minute. How many Canadians would be okay with just thousands and thousands of immigrants cruising on into the country ad nausem?

Are we saying there is no solution and if so I guess the best way to invade a country is just send your women and children in and hope for the best. People are “escaping” things but there needs be a line drawn on condemnation from the world as well as it’s not the USA’s duty to take everybody in because their own countries can’t get their #### together. I understand this is highly ignorant but big picture here it is not so black and white.

That’s why my solution of hey have you clowns put any effort into reuniting families? Because I haven’t seen much reported on that front and quite frankly it’s gotta be cheaper and better from a humanitarian perspective than jailing children and then borderline feeding them. This is a complex problem and I don’t think people are adequately framing things fairly.

Trump is an idiot but there is a reason why “the wall” got so much press. To dismiss those concerns from the average American is pretty disingenuous. It’s not outright in this thread but that is the tone and flavour I get from the left brigade on here. As if the US are just villains for not letting families stay together and find refuge in their country no holds barred. Separating families while maybe frowned upon does send a pretty compelling message not to fata around, I mean can’t really debate that one.

Eh, if I were you I would spend some time researching the issue (if you care to). This is not about letting everyone in no holds barred.

A lot of what you say they should do is what they try to do, it’s the process and conditions between when they arrive at the border and when they leave that is the problem. And a lot of what you’re giving soft support to (policies and facilities) are rife with human rights abuses and in defiance of international law. Even talking about dismissing the concerns of Americans being disingenuous while talking about Trump’s separation policy somewhat favourable is kind of ridiculous, as the vast majority of Americans were against it, and it was bad enough that it lasted three whole months.

People have no problem looking back at the human rights abuses throughout history and saying “wow, that was bad!” but serve up something will a similar flavour in their own backyard, and how quickly it goes to “nothing wrong here” or “I kind of get it” is pretty crazy.

[Mull]

More good work from Biden appointees.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/26/breo...epartment.html

Justice Department will investigate Louisville police department in aftermath of Breonna Taylor shooting

I hope we see Garland on the court one day. Seems like a stand-up guy and it still bugs me with what happened.

This was an awesome pick by Biden for this job.

[Flashpoint]

Biden learned from Obama attempts to work with GOP.

While Obama pared back his stimulus to win Republican votes, Biden met with Republicans once before he opted for a special process to go it alone. While conservative deficit hawks reined in Obama, Biden has brushed them off, arguing that now is the time to spend big. While Obama was hesitant to brag about his achievements, Biden's team regularly takes credit for the receding pandemic — and voters give him high marks.

"It's called learning from the past," said Sen. Mazie Hirono, D-Hawaii, who has served in Congress under the last four presidents. "Not repeating your mistakes."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/joe...den-s-n1264870

Another difference is how the two presidents dealt with the opposition leader in the Senate, Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., who held the same position in Obama's early years and famously said in 2010 that his top priority was to make him a one-term president.

"The biggest lesson learned is that Mitch McConnell doesn't act in good faith," said David Litt, a former speechwriter for Obama. "You see Mitch McConnell's Republicans running the same playbook. But Joe Biden and his administration and the Democrats — this time they know what's coming."

He said GOP votes not to count Biden electors after the attack on the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6 drove that home.

"The Biden administration came in saying: Maybe not all of these GOP lawmakers are totally committed to the whole democracy thing. And we should act accordingly," Litt said.

Thank god is all I can say. Pretending anything bipatisan can happen when the other party are straight up anti-democracy, and founded on feeding lies to their base (you seeing this meat bs this morning?) would be idiotic.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

Thank god is all I can say. Pretending anything bipatisan can happen when the other party are straight up anti-democracy, and founded on feeding lies to their base (you seeing this meat bs this morning?) would be idiotic.

It's too bad clowns like Sinema and Manchin still haven't learned this.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

Pretending anything bipatisan can happen when the other party are straight up anti-democracy, and founded on feeding lies to their base (you seeing this meat bs this morning?) would be idiotic.

Careful now... that's the kind of talk that will have us all end up with plant based beer!

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

Biden learned from Obama attempts to work with GOP.



https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/joe...den-s-n1264870



Thank god is all I can say. Pretending anything bipatisan can happen when the other party are straight up anti-democracy, and founded on feeding lies to their base (you seeing this meat bs this morning?) would be idiotic.

Sure but that sets up precedent. There can be no future complaining when the Republicans next gain power and ram through all their stuff. I mean we're talking flat tax and things like that.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Sure but that sets up precedent. There can be no future complaining when the Republicans next gain power and ram through all their stuff. I mean we're talking flat tax and things like that.

That precedent was set a long time ago by the Republicans.

Seriously, at this point why do any Democrats actually think working with the current crop of Republican leaders will be productive, or lead to some breakthrough where they can work together in perptuity?

Do you honestly think Lucy isn't going to pull the ball away this time?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

That precedent was set a long time ago by the Republicans.

Seriously, at this point why do any Democrats actually think working with the current crop of Republican leaders will be productive, or lead to some breakthrough where they can work together in perptuity?

Do you honestly think Lucy isn't going to pull the ball away this time?

I don't know. I thought when Trump controlled everything in 2016, he didn't get nearly as much passed as he could have. If it had been President Cruz, he would have push through everything because he's a constitutional lawyer and a hard right loon.

Isn't it our fear that one day we will get a competent Trump?

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I don't know. I thought when Trump controlled everything in 2016, he didn't get nearly as much passed as he could have. If it had been President Cruz, he would have push through everything because he's a constitutional lawyer and a hard right loon.

Isn't it our fear that one day we will get a competent Trump?

And what difference would anything Biden does to play a bipartisan game today do to prevent that from happening? Will Mitch McConnell et al suddenly grow a spine, morals, and principles?
Not likely.

Cooperating is a great thing, but when one side has consistently proven they aren't acting in good faith, what is the point of even trying?
Hopefully this crop of GOP leadership finally withers on the vine and some adults will take their place, but until that happens, stop trying to kick the football and just get to the business of getting things done your own way.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

And what difference would anything Biden does to play a bipartisan game today do to prevent that from happening? Will Mitch McConnell et al suddenly grow a spine, morals, and principles?
Not likely.

Cooperating is a great thing, but when one side has consistently proven they aren't acting in good faith, what is the point of even trying?
Hopefully this crop of GOP leadership finally withers on the vine and some adults will take their place, but until that happens, stop trying to kick the football and just get to the business of getting things done your own way.

I see your point but I think without an attempt of bipartisanship, less likely the adults will take their place. It's be more extremists. I mean for example McConnell recognizes COVID as a big problem and punted Trump out. It was idiot Cruz that led the attempted coup. That's a start.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I don't know. I thought when Trump controlled everything in 2016, he didn't get nearly as much passed as he could have. If it had been President Cruz, he would have push through everything because he's a constitutional lawyer and a hard right loon.

Isn't it our fear that one day we will get a competent Trump?

What didn't get passed that he wanted? The only thing I really remember was the full repeal of Obama care... and that was due to a certain senator who is no longer with us.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I see your point but I think without an attempt of bipartisanship, less likely the adults will take their place. It's be more extremists. I mean for example McConnell recognizes COVID as a big problem and punted Trump out. It was idiot Cruz that led the attempted coup. That's a start.

Well first of all, it's ultimately not on the Democrats to slap the Republicans to their senses.

I also think that appeasing the GOP can only backfire. If playing hardball gets you results, then that further incentivizes them to play hardball.

If you only talk to the GOP members who are willing to be reasonable, then over time there's at least a chance that someone will see being reasonable as a way to get more influence.

Of course as long as a significant portion of the voters want to literally murder Democrats and vote for people who clearly totally support the idea even if they can't yet say it out loud, there really isn't that much the Democrats can do to bring reason back into politics.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by HockeyIlliterate

What is/are your proposed solution(s) to the matter?

Why is it on me, with nearly zero knowledge of immigration and refugee policy, to come up for a solution to someone's problem they created when they decided they were going to warehouse children in pretty questionable living conditions?

I watched people who are supposed to be good at this stuff promise that if people voted for them, they'd fix it "Day 1".

Why is it my problem they lied?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by HockeyIlliterate

Sorry, but I must have missed it in your reply, so I’ll ask again:

What is/are your proposed solution(s) to the matter?

I’m not asking what Biden and Harris said or proposed. Just what you propose.

Weird that criticisms of border policy are being treated as contingent on being able to propose solutions these days but not when Trump was in power.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Weird that criticisms of border policy are being treated as contingent on being able to propose solutions these days but not when Trump was in power.

Shut it tankie. New rules: you propose a better solution or you accept what Uncle Joe does. It’s not a perfect system but now that the guy we hate is gone we’re willing to accept a certain level of collateral human damage.

Back to brunch indeed. It’s very clear the issue most people had before was not the actual policy but the man. Give people the kind old man who responds politely and they’ll excuse away the same actions the blowhard did. Kinda neat to watch happen live.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Weird that criticisms of border policy are being treated as contingent on being able to propose solutions these days but not when Trump was in power.

It's because of an a priori assumption about Trump and his cronies having malicious intents towards foreigners. Based on his rhetoric, it's reasonable to assume that he treated them that way because he despised them and wanted to punish them for attempting to cross the border.

Biden has not expressed any hatred towards their group at all, and in fact, his rhetoric has been pretty positive and welcoming. It would be reasonable to assume in their case that it's not borne of malicious intent, but rather negligence and/or apathy.

Neither is good, but one is slightly less egregious than the other.

I also have no good solutions for the situation, but at some point, detention cannot continue, otherwise you have unlawful imprisonment.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Why is it on me, with nearly zero knowledge of immigration and refugee policy, to come up for a solution to someone's problem they created when they decided they were going to warehouse children in pretty questionable living conditions?

I watched people who are supposed to be good at this stuff promise that if people voted for them, they'd fix it "Day 1".

Why is it my problem they lied?

Clearly you don't understand.
You're only allowed to point out that a problem exists if you have a rock solid plan to fix it.

Pfft, you probably go to your doctor without even knowing what kind of surgery to suggest.
Hell, you probably can't even tell your local mechanic how to change your brake pads, but are perfectly happy telling him that your car won't stop.
The view from your pedestal must be amazing....assuming you know what prescription glasses you need before going to see the optometrist.