[PGT] Flames lose 4-2 to Ottawa

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by chedder

Monahan is a career 60 plus point player. And that's accounting for the last 2 terrible seasons. I don't think he's going to be a 3rd line centre.

I hope if he's injured that it is something that can be properly fixed and he comes back as a solid 2nd line centre and puts up 60 plus again.

As you said, I agree that his trade value is low and if Sutter likes him it's probably best to keep him and hope he rebounds amd finds a role.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I’ve noticed he’s better after a break, and he’s better at the beginning of games and periods. I wonder if he needs load management. I just don’t know if they can afford to do that.

Or it could just be this is who Monahan is. But if he is injured - again - then he's a terrible asset for the Flames that they need to rid of since he's not reliable to be productive for a full season + playoffs. Can't be having him in the role as a core player when it's guaranteed that he's going to have an injury that will effect his productively negatively.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Goaltending/defense (defensively) is the least of the Flames problem. You need to be able to score goals to win games, and Flames are incapable of doing that.

Lack of offense from the top forwards, secondary offence, and defenseman makes this team a shoe in to lose night in, night out on most occasions.

A 37 year old is leading the D in scoring. That seems less than optimal. Hanifin is less offensive than I hoped, given his tools.

They just don’t have enough talent. They never did, but they got away with it somehow.

[Rick M.]

I wonder if the Legend of Sam Bennett will continue to grow.

[Jordan!]

I for one am honestly shocked that Darryl hasn't been able to turn this team around.

[ElPresidenti]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Mangiapane is the best goal scorer on this team and has been for nearly two seasons. Painting him as merely a third year 6th rounder is disingenuous at best. He's produced on every other line.

What?? 5 goals in 25 games makes him a mere third year 6 th rounder. Great drive, no finish

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by chedder

Monahan is a career 60 plus point player. And that's accounting for the last 2 terrible seasons. I don't think he's going to be a 3rd line centre.

I hope if he's injured that it is something that can be properly fixed and he comes back as a solid 2nd line centre and puts up 60 plus again.

As you said, I agree that his trade value is low and if Sutter likes him it's probably best to keep him and hope he rebounds amd finds a role.

His career averages are largely irrelevant right now.

He’s not a 60 point guy when he gets 1st line premium ice time and PP time.


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[D as in David]

To me it seems the issue against Ottawa is that the majority of their team seems to play with pace. On the Flames, it appears that only Mangiapane consistently does. I don't know if Tkachuk will ever be able to play that way.

[timbit]

“PACE“ seems to be the new buzz word since Darryl arrived.

Very contagious, apparently.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by D as in David

To me it seems the issue against Ottawa is that the majority of their team seems to play with pace. On the Flames, it appears that only Mangiapane consistently does. I don't know if Tkachuk will ever be able to play that way.

Thing is, it’s not about speed or ability. Some just aren’t doing it. It doesn’t require speed necessarily. Lucic plays with pace a fair bit. He gets the puck, moves the puck, he skates hard and pressure the puck, he hits before the D can make a move. And he’s slow. The littler guys should be all over the opposition, harassing them. Mangiapane does, Dube does most of the time. Ryan does it. Backlund sometimes does and when he does he’s good at it. Gaudreau I wish would rev it up more.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Thing is, it’s not about speed or ability. Some just aren’t doing it. It doesn’t require speed necessarily. Lucic plays with pace a fair bit. He gets the puck, moves the puck, he skates hard and pressure the puck, he hits before the D can make a move. And he’s slow. The littler guys should be all over the opposition, harassing them. Mangiapane does, Dube does most of the time. Ryan does it. Backlund sometimes does and when he does he’s good at it. Gaudreau I wish would rev it up more.

Good point. Pace is more so about positioning and being part of the play, rather than simply being a fast skater. The team overall plays fairly lethargic. I feel like the team in the first game with Sutter behind the pace played with pace. They didn't #### around at all with the puck, and moved it up the ice quickly. As a result, they dominated the play all game long.

That level of puck control domination is not sustainable game to game because the opposing team will be able to play well themselves, and it'll balance out the flow of the game as a result. But Flames overall could play closer to that, rather than the way they've played for the past couple of seasons in having fairly slow decision making and trapping themselves into losing the puck and giving it to the opposing team. Don't need to exclusively have fast players to pull that off. Just need players that think faster, and position themselves to be where the play is going.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Pace and style are just buzzwords for basically 'working hard'.


That doesn't mean smashmouth hockey, and Sutter isn't expecting this team to grind it out.


Think about it this way:


Why the heck has the Gaudreau-Monahan pairing been awful for the last while now at 5on5? Has the league FINALLY figured them out after all these years, or has something changed?


Go back and watch the highlights under Hartley, and the first half of the season under Peters, and you will see why they did so well. They ATTACKED the opposition with speed and creativity. The whole team did, starting with the D (and I think that's a huge issue for this team right now too - the D aren't as good at moving the puck quickly, with Brodie really looking like a huge loss there).


It isn't that they dont' 'care' any longer. I don't buy that this team doesn't have heart, or has simply stopped caring. This team has allowed terrible habits to become part of the culture. They play slow, they have no confidence any longer - it is a broken team. Yes, the players have to take ownership of this too and 100% deserve the criticism, but it was the years of terrible coaching that allowed this to become a thing. It was a lack of moves by the GM to ship out a player who wasn't willing to buy-in and work hard.



Sutter just wants them to compete for 60 minutes - something that I think we have all been screaming into our tv sets for the last 100 or 150 games or so.


If you compete hard, you win a few more 50/50 pucks. If you are used to working hard, you are usually moving a bit faster, and are able to keep moving around faster during your shift without tiring-out. You are also more used to making quicker decisions with and without the puck.


This team is still playing slow because they aren't used to it, they don't have the confidence, and they probably aren't physically able to yet.


This is going to be a huge off-season. Hope the "Hartley demands" are a thing this off-season, not just the moves. Remember how Hartley demanded that the Flames get into the best shapes of their lives, and had the most intense camps? That seemed to pay-off I thought.


Sutter is a demanding coach, but he isn't the dumb farmer that somehow some people still think he is. Of course he knows he doesn't have the horses to out-hit teams, and be able to control the boards. He just wants this team to actually play faster by having more compete in them, and adjusting to the increased speed that a higher compete level should be providing. Will just take time, that's all.


I don't know who is or isn't part of the problem here. I do know one thing - Gaudreau can be the epitome of a "Sutter type" - I think he very much was when we saw him competing his ass off every night. I still think he competes 'well', and I definitely do think he cares, but he is also part of the issue in that most of the team just doesn't 'bring it' for 60 minutes.

[Lanny_McDonald]

You don't win games by ringing the puck around the boards and driving the play by passing the puck back to the point to pound the pucks toward the net. This team plays the game 10' from the boards, and you don't score from there. Until this team starts playing in the other 85% of the ice there is no success on the horizon regardless of who is in a Flames uniform. Teams are too disciplined and goaltenders are too good to think you can generate offense waiting for mistakes and goaltending miscues. The team is too small to dominate the boards and generate anything off the wall. The opposition just lets the Flames ring it around the boards, engage in puck battles, and wait for the Flames to lose the puck themselves or generate a low quality scoring opportunity. Bad system for a team that is built for open ice.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don't "shower Monahan with love". I'd rather he was recast. I just think he's not a top centre but working hard to try and contribute. Gaudreau is underwhelming all over the ice except for a couple shifts a game where he tries hard. Even his assist yesterday was fluky.

Lucic was a bit of hyperbole, but at least he makes things happen.

I guarantee you Monahan is higher on Sutter's list of players he likes. He likes Lindholm too. He has issues with the other two.

I can see the improvement in the work ethic from Monahan these days, which is nice, but he’s paid $6M to score goals. Backlund is paid $5M to be this team’s shutdown center and this season, he’s done a good job of driving his own line and matching ip against the opposition.

So with the top scoring line getting the opposition’s best defenders every night, it’s up to Monahan and his line to contribute their share and that hasn’t happened yet. The effort is there sure, but effort doesn’t win you games technically speaking; outscoring your opponent wins you games and I don’t like Monahan’s -23 plus/minus over his last season and a half. That kind of goal differential doesn’t help this team win games either.

And lastly, you may think that assist was flukey. But cutting to the middle of the ice laterally, especially when you’re not on your off wing is an incredibly high skilled play and only few players in the entire league can do that at this level. Then he threads the needle through sticks and bodies to get Lindholm the puck on a breakaway is pretty damn impressive. Yeah sure, Murray probably should’ve had it, but it still counted and that doesn’t take away how sweet that pass was. We’ll just have to agree to disagree at this point because it’s clear you and I watch the game very differently.


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[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

I was poking around in NST and was suprised when I saw this:



Chucky leading the team in 5v5 GF/60 over the past 2 seasons, and 2nd behind only Lindy if you look at this year's numbers. His other numbers such as GF% are pretty decent too. Maybe we (myself included) have been a bit hasty to pass judgement on him this year.

I think it’s fair to be hard on Tkachuk this season, he has blown a boatload of chances this season in tight. I’m still mad at the deke meets post in Montreal last week. Wide open net, just needed to tuck it in and he blew it. He’s missed quite a few of those this season and he’s paid to finish. So I think it’s fair he gets his share of criticism because the rest of the stars on this team get dumped on regularly.

I will say this though, he’s been a big part of my 2 favorite lines over the past couple seasons. The Mangiapane-Backlund-Tkachuk line and the Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk line. So the common denominator has been Tkachuk in this case, so he’s still incredibly important to this team. He just needs to finish more and get that confidence up.


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[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I agree Sutter like Monny for what he brings defensively, as basically a third line checking centre.

If he was a 4th round pick and making $2.5M no one would be complaining.

But it wasn't that long ago we were hoping he'd be a consistent 80 point guy, first line centre. I think those days are gone, likely due to chronic injuries.

I commend Monny for becoming what he can become. I don't think he will be moved, as there is no real market for him that would improve the Flames. And perhaps his injuries are not chronic, his offence will rebound, and he can be offensively productive again. No reason to sell at his very lowest point.

Just out of curiosity, why are you so certain his points will rebound? What has Monahan displayed over the last 150 games or so that would lead you to believe he will just start producing at a high level again?

I don’t know if Monahan will be here next season or not, but you’re probably correct that his trade value has dropped even further after this season. He was being offered up for Josh Anderson ++ last season. But I don’t see that kind of offer happening again this time around.


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[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Just out of curiosity, why are you so certain his points will rebound? What has Monahan displayed over the last 150 games or so that would lead you to believe he will just start producing at a high level again?

I don’t know if Monahan will be here next season or not, but you’re probably correct that his trade value has dropped even further after this season. He was being offered up for Josh Anderson ++ last season. But I don’t see that kind of offer happening again this time around.


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Where did I say I was certain his offence would rebound?

I expect it won’t. But selling him now would likely bring little other than cap relief.

I was suggesting that you may as well give him the chance. Not much to lose.


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[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I think it’s fair to be hard on Tkachuk this season, he has blown a boatload of chances this season in tight. I’m still mad at the deke meets post in Montreal last week. Wide open net, just needed to tuck it in and he blew it. He’s missed quite a few of those this season and he’s paid to finish. So I think it’s fair he gets his share of criticism because the rest of the stars on this team get dumped on regularly.

I will say this though, he’s been a big part of my 2 favorite lines over the past couple seasons. The Mangiapane-Backlund-Tkachuk line and the Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk line. So the common denominator has been Tkachuk in this case, so he’s still incredibly important to this team. He just needs to finish more and get that confidence up.


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I would like to see more of this line personally as I think it could be a legit top line if given the chance to stick.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

A 37 year old is leading the D in scoring. That seems less than optimal. Hanifin is less offensive than I hoped, given his tools.

They just don’t have enough talent. They never did, but they got away with it somehow.

I think they got away with it because Gio was a Norris winning defensman, Gaudreau was a Hart calibre winger, Backlund was a Selke candidate C... now none of those things are true. Factor in that it seems as though Monahan might be in steep decline due to injury... I think Tkachuk still has the tools, might be an off year and IMO Lindholm is, and has been for a couple of years, our best player... I don't really see a way out of this other than a full rebuild.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Where did I say I was certain his offence would rebound?

I expect it won’t. But selling him now would likely bring little other than cap relief.

I was suggesting that you may as well give him the chance. Not much to lose.


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You literally said in your post “his offense will rebound,” so obviously I took that on face value, but maybe you don’t? I’m not a mind reader here. I don’t know what you actually think.

If this team doesn’t see significant changes next season, this team will just end up in the same mediocre position they always do IMO. Even the Canucks right now look like they’ll surpass the Flames. So we’ll probably be at the very bottom in regards to Western Canadian teams.


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[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

I would like to see more of this line personally as I think it could be a legit top line if given the chance to stick.

I love this line. Always have. They had a brief stint together in 2019 and they were outstanding too. This line has yet to disappointment me once. Last game was close as they weren’t great, but they still produced a big goal and that’s what matters right now. Moral victories don’t help them, goals and wins do.


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