Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[Mull]

Originally Posted by Voodooman

I'm not questioning the loyalty of anyone here. Obviously, if you are on this forum, you are a die hard Flames fan. But, just how many of us are there in this city and province?

This is quite an assumption. I would rather see the Flames leave over the current Arena deal. However, as I said, that battle appeared to be lost, so I was quite happy to move on and hope for the best dam arena, which correctly supports the City needs, we could get for our money.

But now it appears the flames are asking for more.

Wondering why they aren't addressing the rumors. Can't because of an NDA, rumors are factual, something else?

[Mull]

Originally Posted by Gordies Elbow

Well, not "to" lazy to find stories like this: Record vacancy rates in downtown Calgary.

Head offices like Shaw staying?

Maybe explains why the city wants to push the pause button.

If you knew the answer and/or was willing to google it anyway, why are you engaging me to help you?

Just to play with me? All I did was find HO info for another poster

[Gordies Elbow]

Originally Posted by Mull

If you knew the answer and/or was willing to google it anyway, why are you engaging me to help you?

Just to play with me? All I did was find HO info for another poster

I was pointing out that Calgary's corporate support isn't what it used to be/or is perceived.

I understand why they pushed the pause button. Calgary's tax split is a challenge, and you want $400 million for a hockey rink (assuming the increase in costs based on input materials?)

It's definitely a wake up call.

[The Yen Man]

Lets be honest here. Some of the posters here have already made up their mind on who they want to blame and are already outraged at CSEC before any facts have even come out yet, because they were in disagreement with the whole project to begin with and probably grasping at any signs of a possible cancelation of the project.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Lets be honest here. Some of the posters here have already made up their mind on who they want to blame and are already outraged at CSEC before any facts have even come out yet, because they were in disagreement with the whole project to begin with and probably grasping at any signs of a possible cancelation of the project.

Well if you're pointing to me given my self-admitted stance of anti-arena, and our previous engagement, I would disagree.

I have multiple times posted that I am looking forward for a Flames response to these rumors. If we never get that, looking forward to a clear accounting of the project... maybe too high of a hope.

Do I hope the project falls apart? Yes I do if there is no or extremely minimum tax payer cost.
Is that the same as making up ones mind on who is guilty if a party is indeed guilty? Nope

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Lets be honest here. Some of the posters here have already made up their mind on who they want to blame and are already outraged at CSEC before any facts have even come out yet, because they were in disagreement with the whole project to begin with and probably grasping at any signs of a possible cancelation of the project.

Lots of posters were all for the city backing out...now its "we had a deal!"

[Mull]

Originally Posted by Gordies Elbow

Calgary's tax split is a challenge, and you want $400 million for a hockey rink (assuming the increase in costs based on input materials?)

I have been quite clear I do not want $400M for a hockey rink (or even $275M), and even the most pro- arena supporters may not want that - the rumor was $75M increase split 50/50... so $275 + $75/2 ~ $312M

[Macman]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

It's really interesting to see posts like this when people spend their entire existence complaining about bike lanes, the peace bridge, or the library. If we're asking our governments to waste less, then this is literally the place you plant that flag on.

I'm not against any of these things and was actually a proponent of the Peace bridge when many people were against it and even with the cost over runs.
My point was the city needs things like this including public art and also help with a new arena.

Calgary is a big metropolis and money should be allocated for these things and not just from the municipal level either.

Look at how much money flows out the provincial coffers and federal without much accountability, maybe not so much at the municipal level but still.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Add the NHLPA as another obstacle to moving CGY. While they may not have any veto, they’d be pretty pissed if the league approved a move that is likely to hurt HRR (or at least not improve it relative to moving a franchise that is actually struggling).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

For what it's worth, there are already companies in Houston that sell mock-NHL merchandise for a Houston team. You could probably move half the teams there and it would be a better market. I think that is actually one of the things that makes it difficult. If the NHL finally gave the greenlight for a team to go to Houston, there would be many owners wanting dibs to be the one relocating there.

New teams always see a huge surge in merchandise sales. The Kraken are breaking records and the #1 jersey according to Fanatics is Marc-Andre Fleury. A team that relocates to Houston would immediately sell a tonne of merchandise and continue to for a long time I think.

And as much as I hate to say it, the Flames are probably near the league bottom in merchandise sales. I can't find a lot of information, but Bardown has a small story about E-Bay sales that talks about the Canadian teams and it doesn't even mention Calgary. It mentions that Toronto and Winnipeg have seen the most increase and that the top Canadian teams are Montreal, Toronto and Edmonton (tied for 2nd). I know that e-bay isn't the end-all, but it is a large sample size.

https://www.bardown.com/online-merch...erall-1.705667

According to Fanatics, Calgary doesn't have a jersey in the top 50, at least as of 2020 (even Gritty is there at #40). I doubt it got any better since then. I don't think Arizona, Florida, or Ottawa are there either, but the difference is likely negligible. I wish I could find a list for team sales and not just players, but it doesn't look like they publish that, other than noting that the Rangers are #1.

https://www.fanatics.com/best-sellin...000-2061647579

I really don't think the NHLPA would be too worried about Calgary's contribution to merchandise sales. They're my team and I love them, but I think it's hubris to think they are important to the NHL's big picture.

[Lanny_McDonald]

I have to laugh at those who suggest Calgary is such a great market. It's a one horse town (O&G) and that horse is really long in the tooth and not looking too good right now. Without that influx of dollars, Calgary is Winnipeg with mountains. Unless the O&G sector comes back, there are cities all over the US that could beat Calgary as a market. Better to be second fiddle in major marketplace than first fiddle in a dying marketplace. People seem to forget that revenues are generated in Canadian dollars, but paid out in American dollars. Make the move and you have 25% benefit just in exchange rate.

[Monahammer]

Lol yeah, should have packed up the Red Wings when the auto sector went down the ####ter and Detroit literally collapsed in on itself at the municipal level.

/s

[Senator Clay Davis]

Wouldn't be an arena discussion without New Era telling us how much Calgary sucks.

[Manhattanboy]

I think the IOC is as corrupt as any organization or tin pot dictator and I'm the guy advocating a boycott of the China Olympics but it really is too bad we did not pursue the 2026 Winter Games. City could have used a huge boost,

[PepsiFree]

Calgary is the Sam Bennett of cities!

[Looch City]

We have finally come full circle and are now back at the infamous "is Calgary a world class city?" question.

Truly amazing stuff!

[troutman]

Originally Posted by New Era

I have to laugh at those who suggest Calgary is such a great market. It's a one horse town (O&G) and that horse is really long in the tooth and not looking too good right now. Without that influx of dollars, Calgary is Winnipeg with mountains. Unless the O&G sector comes back, there are cities all over the US that could beat Calgary as a market. Better to be second fiddle in major marketplace than first fiddle in a dying marketplace. People seem to forget that revenues are generated in Canadian dollars, but paid out in American dollars. Make the move and you have 25% benefit just in exchange rate.

Calgary actually had positive net migration last year, despite the pandemic and low price of oil. This surprised me because I personally met many families moving to BC.

I think once a city reaches 1 million the gravity attracts people, no matter what is going on.

https://alis.alberta.ca/occinfo/indu...as-extraction/

The mining and oil and gas extraction industry employed 135,800 people in 2016. This is a decrease of 19,500 jobs or 12.6% from 2015.

https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/1098...esentation.pdf

The oil and gas and mining sector accounts for 16.4 per cent of the province’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP), compared with 23.2 per cent in 1986.

[442scotty]

Without that influx of dollars, Calgary is Winnipeg with mountains.[/QUOTE]

Clearly you need to spend more time in Winnipeg to appreciate Calgary

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Lol yeah, should have packed up the Red Wings when the auto sector went down the ####ter and Detroit literally collapsed in on itself at the municipal level.

/s

Poke fun at Detroit all you want, but the GDP of the metro-Detroit is still almost three times that of the City of Calgary. Economic diversity is big problem for Calgary, one the City and Province have been slow to address.

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Wouldn't be an arena discussion without New Era telling us how much Calgary sucks.

Calgary doesn't suck. It is one of the best cities in the world to me. It has an unparalleled natural setting that makes it extremely attractive. The people are wonderful and the city has many things going for it. But once you pull your head out of your ass and you actually do a comparative assessment of Calgary to other municipalities around North America, Calgary is small potatoes, especially with the downturn in O&G. Calgary's GDP puts it in competition with Salt Lake, Hartford, and Virginia Beach, being a fraction of Houston, Portland, San Diego, Austin, Sacramento, Indianapolis, Orlando, Cleveland, San Antonio, and Kansas City. Calgary is just below the same economic footing as Milwaukee. That's the reality it faces. So while it is a great location and what I will always consider home, it is not some economic mecca that puts other municipalities to shame. When you consider the 25% hit faces, it is a tough sell and the city is damn lucky they have an ownership group that has deep pockets and is willing to operate at break-even or a loss for the benefit of the city they love.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by New Era

Poke fun at Detroit all you want, but the GDP of the metro-Detroit is still almost three times that of the City of Calgary. Economic diversity is big problem for Calgary, one the City and Province have been slow to address.

I lived in Detroit and have nothing against it at all. I was making fun of your silly comment.

O & G has made up a steadily decreasing portion of provincial GDP over the last 7 years. The former provincial government actually had some interesting policies in place that began addressing the diversity of industry in the province. Of course, the UCP government came in and immediately stopped all of those, to great detriment. They only restarted a few of them (under the guise of them being different- but specifically credit programs for tech and film sectors) just in the last year and they have continued to be successful.

As pointed out above, Calgary is transitioning away from being a one trick pony. But it doesn't happen overnight, and the political will to do so only seriously started to materialize with the NDP government.

[Senator Clay Davis]

I can't ever remember where you live New Era, but you should post it so we can decide how much we want to mock it.