Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

To be fair, there was another management group that ran/ runs the construction of that refinery. But it's not like CNRL is known for never going over budget or over time on any projects ever

It's a management group picked by CNRL and NWR. CNRL must have significant involvement.

[sfpipes]

Originally Posted by Mull

Its foolhardy to go down this path. Siding with Edwards over CMLC without more details simply shows how blinded and irrational people can act towards a hockey team.

Sorry Mull, nothing against you personally or this statement in and of itself. Merely quoting because to me what a lot of it really comes down to is what side of the fence each of us started on and how entrenched we are on that side.


For a CMLC/City sided individual, this quote is bang on. For someone siding with the Flames, you just need to change it a bit. "Siding with CMLC over Edwards without more details simply shows how blinded and irrational people can act towards a billionaire hockey owner."



For me personally, I'm kind of in the middle. I want the Flames to have a new arena. I'm not paying taxes in Calgary so I don't need to worry about how my tax dollars are spent. That said, as a person who grew up there and still consider it my "hometown", I also don't want the City to get bent over as badly as Edmonton did. So for me to "pick a camp", I really need more details, from all parties involved.



But like religion, politics and Covid, if a person is firmly set in their ways, not much is going to change that person's opinion.

[Manhattanboy]

As a lifelong STH (and frequent goer of concerts and other Dome events) and participant in numerous focus groups and surveys on the new Event Centre I am convinced the manager of this project should be me.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by sfpipes

Sorry Mull, nothing against you personally or this statement in and of itself. Merely quoting because to me what a lot of it really comes down to is what side of the fence each of us started on and how entrenched we are on that side.


For a CMLC/City sided individual, this quote is bang on. For someone siding with the Flames, you just need to change it a bit. "Siding with CMLC over Edwards without more details simply shows how blinded and irrational people can act towards a billionaire hockey owner."



For me personally, I'm kind of in the middle. I want the Flames to have a new arena. I'm not paying taxes in Calgary so I don't need to worry about how my tax dollars are spent. That said, as a person who grew up there and still consider it my "hometown", I also don't want the City to get bent over as badly as Edmonton did. So for me to "pick a camp", I really need more details, from all parties involved.



But like religion, politics and Covid, if a person is firmly set in their ways, not much is going to change that person's opinion.

You sure said alot, for having said nothing at all.

[sfpipes]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

You sure said alot, for having said nothing at all.

I sure appreciate your quality feedback.

[calgaryred]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

The NHL is not like the NFL in that regard. The NFL plays musical chairs with franchise locations all the time. The NHL is still trying to make Glendale work, for crying out loud.



When was the last time an NHL team relocated without also being sold to new owners?

Minnesota to Dallas

[Lanny_McDonald]

I'm betting Houston or Portland comes calling. There is a reason why two groups paid the huge expansion fees they did. There's money in the NHL.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Just a quick question in regards to CMLC. Who does everyone think has a better knowledge of doing huge deals, CMLC or Murray Edwards?

Does Murray Edwards have this Trump-like aura of deal making or something?

Is he going to out negotiate the City like you see on Suits or some other TV program?

Sports owners all use the same playbook:

https://www.amazon.ca/Field-Schemes-.../dp/0803260164

[getbak]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1382827365525549059

https://twitter.com/user/status/1382828022298972163

[442scotty]

Like everything else... this things never get cheaper if they delay it... Just fix the deal already

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Does Murray Edwards have this Trump-like aura of deal making or something?

Is he going to out negotiate the City like you see on Suits or some other TV program?

Sports owners all use the same playbook:

https://www.amazon.ca/Field-Schemes-.../dp/0803260164

Edwards is a very good deal maker. I’ve been in the room with him. That said, dealing with elected officials and city bureaucrats is a different animal.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

I still don't understand if the delay is caused by concerns over material prices, or because of new demands from the Flames. If it is the former, then perhaps a delay is warranted (although overruns should have been contemplated in the agreement). If it is the latter, I don't see the point. They don't have leverage in this situation. I don't think the city is clamouring for a new arena like the Flames are.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

It’s a huge distinction IMO. There is quite a difference between owning a sports team, and not.

Instead of talking about relo, we should be debating whether Edwards and co. want to stay in the pro sports business.

If they are thinking of relocating the team, I take it for granted that they are selling as well. That's how relocation in the NHL works. First you try to sell to owners who want to keep the team where it is, and if you don't find any, you look for owners who want to buy the team and move it.

So we have, in fact, been talking about whether Edwards & Co. want to stay in the pro sports business right from the beginning.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by calgaryred

Minnesota to Dallas

Right, and that's the only one I can think of offhand where the new owner went in without already having the intention of moving the team.

I don't remember enough of the details about the move from Hartford to Carolina; but that franchise was a red-headed stepchild from the start. The NHL never wanted a team in Hartford, but they had to accept it or the WHA merger wasn't going through.

In every other case I can recall, the franchises were bought by new owners with the specific intention of relocating.

[442scotty]

Maybe the teams owners have taken a beating financially and this is their way of getting the city to pull out of the deal setting off the exit chain reaction. Who knows

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Edwards is a very good deal maker. I’ve been in the room with him. That said, dealing with elected officials and city bureaucrats is a different animal.

Compared to who?

and it what way? what is his style?

I'm don't mean that to be snarky - i honestly want to know.

I am not saying he isn't but, for example, City officials (not council) negotiate deals all the time. They would have the experience to deal with all tactics

[Senator Clay Davis]

I'm sure Murray is a pretty tough negotiator, but I'm also sure he usually has a decent amount of leverage to use. He doesn't have much, if any, on this. If he had any decent leverage he would have used it already in the initial deal. To think he'll get a better deal now is doing a horrible job of reading the current situation.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by New Era

I'm betting Houston or Portland comes calling. There is a reason why two groups paid the huge expansion fees they did. There's money in the NHL.

Looking at a recent Forbes list of franchise values, the Flames are worth $480 million. The team could probably be moved to Houston and gain $100 million in worth immediately.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeoza...h=221557e070dd

I don't if Edwards would actively try to sell, but if the arena falls through, the sharks may start circling. Edwards can always just say no, but I agree that phones will be ringing.

Side question, it is interesting that the Flames operating income is $400K while almost every team is several million. Most are in the 10s of the millions. Ottawa and Vancouver are the next lowest at $2.9 million. What is that number exactly, and why are the Flames so low?

Edit: Nevermind, I just realized some of those are negative numbers. I guess the Flames pretty much break even.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Compared to who?

and it what way? what is his style?

I'm don't mean that to be snarky - i honestly want to know.

I am not saying he isn't but, for example, City officials (not council) negotiate deals all the time. They would have the experience to deal with all tactics

Well, compared to lots of other lawyers and businessmen I’ve dealt with. City officials make deals all the time, but rarely of the magnitude of this one (or, for example, acquiring the Athabaskan Oil Sands projects, or buying BP Amoco assets, or a bailout of the RCR ski and gold reports. This arena deal is a lot smaller than CNRL’s major deals.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

If they are thinking of relocating the team, I take it for granted that they are selling as well. That's how relocation in the NHL works. First you try to sell to owners who want to keep the team where it is, and if you don't find any, you look for owners who want to buy the team and move it.

So we have, in fact, been talking about whether Edwards & Co. want to stay in the pro sports business right from the beginning.

Well I think that order is maybe wrong. IMO it's not the "thinking of relocating the team" that comes first. It's the owning the team part.

I kind of think that when many people discuss the threat of relo, they're envisioning some situation where another city cuts the Flames a sweetheart deal on a lease or offers to build them an arena. Not Murray and co. exiting the business.

IMO there isn't much evidence that the owners want to sell, in fact I'd say the opposite.

Yes ultimately Calgary would lose the Flames without a new arena that has been heavily subsidized. And ownership might eventually sell if they think that is unachievable here. But the fact that they want to own and operate an NHL team is actually a bargaining chip in the City's favor here.