Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Apparently it's not just that... it's also disagreements on scope (which somehow wasn't ironed out when they signed the deal). Remember how the deal was that everything outside the scope would be paid for by the side that wanted it? Not such a great idea when you rush the job and don't figure out what the scope is beforehand.

https://skyrisecities.com/forum/thre...1#post-1677048

No time for questions like that when council needs to get the vote done before their late summer break since they know the deal won't survive a few weeks of public scrutiny.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Muta

That area is being built up though. There's been lots of commercial and residential development around the arena, and that entire area in gentrifying. It will only be a matter of time before the land north of that arena develops too. I think it's quite premature to suggest it hasn't worked.

You can't look at that CRL covering the Arena District in a vacuum. The issue in Edmonton is they now have two competing CRL's, with a limited amount of development money to go around, it's harder for new tax revenue to pay off the loans. Development shifted from the Quarters CRL to the Capital City CRL (including the ice district). They stole from Peter to pay Paul.

CRL's are dubious at best, and Edmonton went full Oilers by creating two that compete with each other.

Maybe they should rename these the Draisatle CRL and the McDavid CRL.

[Muta]

Sure, but the north downtown area is being built up around the arena regardless of how it's being financed. Both CRLs exist to kick-start inner city development. It's too early judge the results of whether this growth has been a success or not; you probably need at least ten years to start.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Muta

Sure, but the north downtown area is being built up around the arena regardless of how it's being financed. Both CRLs exist to kick-start that development. It's too early judge the results of whether this growth has been a success or not.

Too early? Go read about the Quarters. Development abandoned it and moved to surround the ice district. All the new CRL did was shift development from one place to another and increase the city' debt load.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

Too early? Go read about the Quarters. Development abandoned it and moved to surround the ice district. All the new CRL did was shift development from one place to another and increase the city' debt load.

I'm talking about the ice district specifically; I agree about the Quarters for the most part.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Muta

I'm talking about the ice district specifically; I agree about the Quarters for the most part.

Of course spending $600+mil will build an area up. The issue is the funding for the arena came from the Capitol City CRL, which stole development from the Quarters CRL. The city has no "net" new development, but has $231mil more debt.

Edmonton screwed this arena deal up about as badly as possible. Very on brand.

[shermanator]

Time to invest that money into a soccer stadium. It is the province's official sport after all.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

Of course spending $600+mil will build an area up. The issue is the funding for the arena came from the Capitol City CRL, which stole development from the Quarters CRL. The city has no "net" new development, but has $231mil more debt.

Edmonton screwed this arena deal up about as badly as possible. Very on brand.

Okay, but my original point is that the area around the new arena is being built up as intended; someone suggested it hasn't worked out. It's too early to tell whether it has worked or hasn't; but it is a fact that development has occurred, and is occurring, in that area. Fun fact - MacEwan is about to build their new $100M business school just northeast of there, as an example to another project coming down the pipeline around there.

[Sylvanfan]

I had heard that they were just beginning Pre qualifications for the Arena this week with sub contractors. But thay may have been delayed. Pre-quals, are essentially assessing that the people bidding on the job are who they say they are and can provide proof of executing past projects. Once they go through that they might have a budget price phase, whittle it down, than invite for tender. Not sure if the same General for the BMO is the General for the Arena...but I would guess it is. Challenging group of people they are.

Last I heard on Monday, Steel Mills expect pricing to remain at current levels for the balance of this year and if they order isn't in by July 1st, you won't get your steel this calendar year. Recently on these types of Projects they have been excluding the use of Steel produced in China. Based around an issue that caused a few Bridges in Alberta to require major repairs and a lot of failed welds. Typically it stipulates North American Mills although many will accept steel from Japan, EU, or Korea.

This project is big enough that offshore guys in China would be interested in it, and they likely would originally come in 30% cheaper than locals, but with hidden costs that eventually result in a 10% savings.

Most people on this forum would rather see a company based out of China get the work than one based out of Edmonton I suspect.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

I had heard that they were just beginning Pre qualifications for the Arena this week with sub contractors. But thay may have been delayed. Pre-quals, are essentially assessing that the people bidding on the job are who they say they are and can provide proof of executing past projects. Once they go thru that they might have a budget price phase, whittle it down, than invite for tender. Not sure if the same General for the BMO is the General for the Arena...but I would guess it is. Challenging group of people they are.

Last I heard on Monday, Steel Mills expect pricing to remain at current levels for the balance of this year and if they order isn't in by July 1st, you won't get your steel this calendar year. Recently on these types of Projects they have been excluding the use of Steel produced in China. Based around an issue that caused a few Bridges in Alberta to require major repairs and a lot of failed welds. Typically it stipulates North American Mills although many will accept steel from Japan, EU, or Korea.

This project is big enough that offshore guys in China would be interested in it, and they likely would originally come in 30% cheaper than locals, but with hidden costs that eventually result in a 10% savings.

Most people on this forum would rather see a company based out of China get the work than one based out of Edmonton I suspect.

No. Just....no.

[darockwilder]

Originally Posted by shermanator

Time to invest that money into a soccer stadium. It is the province's official sport after all.

Or the Mart Kenney Music Center.

[Manhattanboy]

This is terrible news. I have no confidence this project gets done and if it does it will certainly be delayed by at least a year and constructed to a much lower spec.

But hey we have that shiny new library to be proud of.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

This is terrible news. I have no confidence this project gets done and if it does it will certainly be delayed by at least a year and constructed to a much lower spec.

But hey we have that shiny new library to be proud of.

We do indeed! And you don't have to pay to get in, there a tons of City programs in there (particularly when COVID is over) and it even can help new businesses by providing cheap (or free?) work areas and meeting rooms.

It truly is a gem that was built on a parcel of land which otherwise may have been a useless. It also served as a new space providing new amenities to the City, instead of just largely an upgraded space, which the new arena is more of than what the library provides in my view

With the downstream benefits that are possible for all Calgarians even if you don't use it as you may be impacted without knowing-We are indeed lucky our council invested in it!

[Looch City]

Omg someone mentioned the library again.

Do we all drink now?

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Muta

Okay, but my original point is that the area around the new arena is being built up as intended; someone suggested it hasn't worked out. It's too early to tell whether it has worked or hasn't; but it is a fact that development has occurred, and is occurring, in that area. Fun fact - MacEwan is about to build their new $100M business school just northeast of there, as an example to another project coming down the pipeline around there.

Macewan was always going to expand there.

The ice district is still garbage, how many years later? Katz hasnt even finished his own portions of the ice district he was supposed to build. No other large developments in the ice district have yet to break ground.

Next time i'm downtown i will take pictures for you. It's still not a very usable space.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

This is terrible news. I have no confidence this project gets done and if it does it will certainly be delayed by at least a year and constructed to a much lower spec.

But hey we have that shiny new library to be proud of.

Literacy and social mobility vs. Slightly nicer workplace for a crappy hockey team

Tough call


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Mull

We do indeed! And you don't have to pay to get in, there a tons of City programs in there (particularly when COVID is over) and it even can help new businesses by providing cheap (or free?) work areas and meeting rooms.

It truly is a gem that was built on a parcel of land which otherwise may have been a useless.

With the downstream benefits that are possible for all Calgarians even if you don't use it as you may be impacted without knowing-We are indeed lucky our council invested in it!

Oh I feel so lucky, so fortunate to be living in this garbage city with a garbage climate run by garbage politicians who sit on council because they aren't qualified to do anything else.

I am so angry about this I can't even speak.

[ah123]

A few more tidbits of information here

LiveWire Calgary has since learned that the project budget wouldn’t build the arena that had originally been approved. This was due to a variety of cost escalations.

We have also learned that concurrently, scope changes were requested by Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corporation (CSEC). These were two separate issues, according to the information provided.

The agreement does state that changes initiated by one party would be covered solely by the initiating party.

“The decision to take this pause is the responsible and prudent approach to ensure we find the best solutions to move the project forward successfully, without incurring any additional costs on the project while these discussions progress. The team is working collaboratively to find a suitable path forward,” said Kate Thompson, President and CEO, Calgary Municipal Land Corporation.

https://livewirecalgary.com/2021/04/...y-differences/

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Macewan was always going to expand there.

Yeah I know; I'm just mentioning it as an example of development in the area, and soon.

Originally Posted by Monahammer

The ice district is still garbage, how many years later? Katz hasnt even finished his own portions of the ice district he was supposed to build. No other large developments in the ice district have yet to break ground.

Next time i'm downtown i will take pictures for you. It's still not a very usable space.

Well, agree to disagree. There's lots of development happening around the arena and the surrounding area. My Edmonton office used to be right in there. Development doesn't necessarily mean high rises either, but I'm sure most people don't care about those types of developments in the context of this conversation.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Looch City

Omg someone mentioned the library again.

Do we all drink now?

Yup.