Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Well I am employed again ...

Not sure it would make much of a dent in the funding requirements though.

Atta boy! Let me tell you, when you shared the news of Husky I was a little concerned for you. Good to hear you're back in the saddle. Now... about the private suite in the new building!

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Mull

It came from a poster at the link below
https://skyrisecities.com/forum/thre....29262/page-28

Using pipe instead of pike doesn't lend much credibility

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Using pipe instead of pike doesn't lend much credibility

This will be a mute point once they break ground.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Well I am employed again ...

Not sure it would make much of a dent in the funding requirements though.

Not with that attitude.

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

At least not until we’ve rolled out the Jump to Conclusions mat.

The guy made a million dollars...

[oldschoolcalgary]

From what I have been told, steel has definitely jumped in costs...

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

From what I have been told, steel has definitely jumped in costs...

I work for one of the larger Steel Fabricators in Alberta. Steel is way up in price well over 20% from market norms, lead times are extending by the day, and supply is short.

Usually we can get typical structural steel for about 50 cents a pound from mills. On some specialty steel with weathering and cold temperature requirements on a recent job up to nearly $1.00 a pound and 3 months for the Material to land at our plant. But plate is heavily dependent on scrap material being recycled, and there is a major shortage of that right now. Part of it due to Covid shut downs and closures from last year.

We landed at 1600 ton project and I think we have procured material for about 65% of the project and have pretty much cleaned out the in stock plate supply in the region from supplier warehouses and the like.

We did bid the BMO Center which closed last week and it was 8800 tons. As far as I know we have not even seen the bid package for the arena and I know it was on our radar as one of the major projects we would go after. If it's similar to Edmonton's arena that was more like 16000 tons.

In a typical large project Steel is pretty minor, usually no more than 10-15% of the overall project cost. Within a steel project Material runs 30 to 35% of the total project cost typically. Today the Material is well over 40. All the pretty stuff that covers up a lot of the steel, that's also up in price right now. But it's the second thing after the Concrete that's needed. If the steel is delayed...well, hard to frame all those pretty interior walls and suites without a supporting super structure.

At the beginning of the year there was a lot of activity, but we have seen a lot of Construction owners put projects on pause. Even on awarded contracts...we have been told to hold off on buying Material and complete the drafting/Engineering work and they'll put it online. One of the Major Energy producers in the Province has a project where they are currently evaluating digging up a bunch of old power poles, and rework them to suit what they require for a new line because the price of new steel scared them that much.

So I wouldn't be shocked if the steel bids on BMO are 25% higher than they expected, and that will end up being the same for the arena.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

I work for one of the larger Steel Fabricators in Alberta. Steel is way up in price well over 20% from market norms, lead times are extending by the day, and supply is short.

Usually we can get typical structural steel for about 50 cents a pound from mills. On some specialty steel with weathering and cold temperature requirements on a recent job up to nearly $1.00 a pound and 3 months for the Material to land at our plant. But plate is heavily dependent on scrap material being recycled, and there is a major shortage of that right now. Part of it due to Covid shut downs and closures from last year.

We landed at 1600 ton project and I think we have procured material for about 65% of the project and have pretty much cleaned out the in stock plate supply in the region from supplier warehouses and the like.

We did bid the BMO Center which closed last week and it was 8800 tons. As far as I know we have not even seen the bid package for the arena and I know it was on our radar as one of the major projects we would go after. If it's similar to Edmonton's arena that was more like 16000 tons.

In a typical large project Steel is pretty minor, usually no more than 10-15% of the overall project cost. All the pretty stuff that covers up a lot of the steel, that's also up in price right now. But it's the second thing after the Concrete that's needed. If the steel is delayed...well, hard to frame all those pretty interior walls and suites without a supporting super structure.

At the beginning of the year there was a lot of activity, but we have seen a lot of Construction owners put projects on pause. Even on awarded contracts...we have been told to hold off on buying Material and complete the drafting/Engineering work and they'll put it online. One of the Major Energy producers in the Province has a project where they are currently evaluating digging up a bunch of old power poles, and rework them to suit what they require for a new line because the price of new steel scared them that much.

So I wouldn't be shocked if the steel bids on BMO are 25% higher than they expected, and that will end up being the same for the arena.

Thanks for the information.

I work in architecture, and I know that our CMs have been telling us the same thing, but never with the same amount of detail...

It's gotten to the point where we get a cost estimate, have to value engineer the design down, and then find in that time period, the costs have escalated again and we have to value engineer again.

Larger projects will have economies of scale that would help them to secure volume of material, more than smaller projects would be able to...so who knows what is going to happen with the arena...

keynesian economics don't help here as the challenge is in raw material and not simply labor costs...

Any idea if aluminum is also a supply issue? Asking for a project I am working on...

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

Thanks for the information.

I work in architecture, and I know that our CMs have been telling us the same thing, but never with the same amount of detail...

It's gotten to the point where we get a cost estimate, have to value engineer the design down, and then find in that time period, the costs have escalated again and we have to value engineer again.

Larger projects will have economies of scale that would help them to secure volume of material, more than smaller projects would be able to...so who knows what is going to happen with the arena...

keynesian economics don't help here as the challenge is in raw material and not simply labor costs...

Any idea if aluminum is also a supply issue? Asking for a project I am working on...

Sorry, Aluminum isn't something I'm too familiar with when it comes to price or supply.

Steel prices have been a bit more in flux in nature recently, and used to be mills would hold prices for time frames if they knew the order was going to be large enough but that's a practice that they are not employing right now.

From the labour cost perspective...we are pretty hungry, as will all the competitors we have on the project be too. But even steel fabricators are not so crazy that they'll intentionally underprice the Material and hope they get lucky...a practice that we often foolishly employ when it comes to labour and admin.

[TheScorpion]

Hey, you know what, I choose to think of things this way. Even if there are any delays, at least we get to spend an extra year or two watching games at one of the most iconic arenas in the history of the league.

[3rd Degree]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Hey, you know what, I choose to think of things this way. Even if there are any delays, at least we get to spend an extra year or two watching games at one of the most iconic arenas in the history of the league.

And our ticket prices won’t go up as soon.

[BMStrikesAgain]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Hey, you know what, I choose to think of things this way. Even if there are any delays, at least we get to spend an extra year or two watching games at one of the most iconic arenas in the history of the league.

montreal forum, joe louis arena, boston garden, Madison square gardens, Maple leaf gardens, the garden in my backyard. those are iconic arenas, the saddledome is not.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by BMStrikesAgain

montreal forum, joe louis arena, boston garden, Madison square gardens, Maple leaf gardens, the garden in my backyard. those are iconic arenas, the saddledome is not.

Even as an Edmonton guy, I have to disagree.
sure the history isn't as long as those other arenas, but everyone knows the saddledome.
It's iconic look will be with us forever.

besides, Joe Louis isn't iconic, it's a modern concrete dump. The Olympia was iconic.

[RM14]

Can't we just use one of the steel mountains near Corb Lund's house? JK

[Canadianman]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

This will be a mute point once they break ground.

It's a moo point... like a cow's opinion, you know, it just doesn't matter. It's "moo".

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Canadianman

It's a moo point... like a cow's opinion, you know, it just doesn't matter. It's "moo".

There should be a statue of limitations on these jokes...but I guess the materials are too expensive

[Johnhitbox]

It's is

Sent from my XQ-AT52 using Tapatalk

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by BMStrikesAgain

montreal forum, joe louis arena, boston garden, Madison square gardens, Maple leaf gardens, the garden in my backyard. those are iconic arenas, the saddledome is not.

Historic and Iconic can be different.

The Dome is Iconic, and I've even come across random Europeans who knew about the Saddledome, if nothing else about Calgary.

Montreal Forum was historic.

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by BMStrikesAgain

montreal forum, joe louis arena, boston garden, Madison square gardens, Maple leaf gardens, the garden in my backyard. those are iconic arenas, the saddledome is not.

Maple Leaf Gardens was a big nothing, a place to house a sucking Leaf team in the 70s,80s, and 90s. It was also a place where known paedophiles were protected.

The others I agree, but I think you sell the dome short. With the exception of the Forum, none of the other buildings hosted Olympic Games and the dome had much better sight lines then all but MSG.

From a hockey history standpoint, the Montreal forum is absolutely the top and also holds good memories for Flames fans. On top of that Sinatra, Elvis, the Beatles, and Led Zeppelin all played there.

[shotinthebacklund]

Steel prices have gone up anywhere from 40-100% recently. That is if you can even find the steel required. Standard 1/8" plate is even harder to come by. Same goes for aluminum with pricing and even worse with supply. We mostly use plate steel in standard grades and structural tubing. All in all cost have skyrocketed across the board in the manufacturing industry. Timelines for supply even worse.