Brad Treliving needs to go

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

Found this neat stat on Poile:

“On March 1, 2018, David Poile became the most successful general manager in NHL history, as the Nashville Predators defeated the Edmonton Oilers 4-2, giving him his 1,320th win as a general manager, surpassing Glen Sather who had won 1,319 games.“

One Final appearance in close to 40 years kind of minimizes that accomplishment

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Why would anyone consider Poile an elite gm, epsecially now? Never won a Cup, has lost all his recent big trades (big win in the Forsberg trade being the exception), and his recent big money signings like Duchene and Turris have been busts.

His most recent "big" trade was trading Subban away for Steven Santini, Jeremy Davies, 2019 2nd round pick #45, 2019 3rd round pick #65, 2020 2nd round pick #37. Subban has tremendous negative trade value now.
That was a huge win.

I agree that the contracts he gave to the centers are bad. But that's just one part of a gigantic 30+ year track record.

And like others have said, his ability to draft and develop defensemen is so good that it practically made them a consistent playoff team.

Hockey is very popular in Nashville. It's not a traditional market at all.
All credit goes to Poile for this. He should be in the HOF whether he wins cups or not.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

One Final appearance in close to 40 years kind of minimizes that accomplishment

So the winningest GM in the history of the NHL is not elite?

Would you place Jay Feaster ahead of Poile?

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

So the winningest GM in the history of the NHL is not elite?

Would you place Jay Feaster ahead of Poile?

Let's say a franchise had the winningest regular season record over the last 40 years, but one final appearance during that time, would you consider that franchise elite?And even that wouldn't be an entirely accurate comparison, because there could be a host of other factors for a longevity of a gm ( age when he first became a gm, ownership, etc)

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Let's say a franchise had the winningest regular season record over the last 40 years, but one final appearance during that time, would you consider that franchise elite?And even that wouldn't be an entirely accurate comparison, because there could be a host of other factors for a longevity of a gm ( age when he first became a gm, ownership, etc)

Ya, I guess I would likely consider an executive who had compiled the winningest record over 40 years elite. Being a GM is hard, and to do that relative to your peers is frankly indicative of elite management. Cups are meaningful, but Ws are also very meaningful.

I am honestly just wondering how you evaluate what a good GM is. Your "hot take" indicated that it's expected for even the best GMs to have bad seasons, but here you are saying that winning cups and going deep into the playoffs is critical to being a good GM, but also David Poile has won a ton of games as a GM but isn't elite under your criteria.

Just to unpack:

- Being bad from time to time is ok.
- It's hard to count on a GM to bring consistent results
- But also, winning consistently, like Poile, and doing this over a long time doesn't mean you're that good
- But winning cups is the most important part of your criteria, along with going deep in the playoffs.

[GioforPM]

Police has been a decent GM, but his win record is a lot about longevity.

That said, it’s too bad Calgary lost him to Washington way back when. I’m so old I remember when he was a bright young GM in the early 80s.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Police has been a decent GM, but his win record is a lot about longevity.

That said, it’s too bad Calgary lost him to Washington way back when. I’m so old I remember when he was a bright young GM in the early 80s.

TIL he was GM of WAS from '82-97. Having missed the playoffs for the first 8 years of their existence, once Poile arrived they made the playoffs 14 straight years before missing in 96-97. But then made the finals in '97-98.

Of course most of those years it was pretty hard to miss the playoffs, but still pretty darn impressive

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

TIL he was GM of WAS from '82-97. Having missed the playoffs for the first 8 years of their existence, once Poile arrived they made the playoffs 14 straight years before missing in 96-97. But then made the finals in '97-98.

Of course most of those years it was pretty hard to miss the playoffs, but still pretty darn impressive

He’s been good. I actually don’t know if any GM is elite - it’s so hard to judge, with luck, location, budgets before the cap, etc.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Police has been a decent GM, but his win record is a lot about longevity.

That said, it’s too bad Calgary lost him to Washington way back when. I’m so old I remember when he was a bright young GM in the early 80s.

It's funny how you imagine ages on the internet; I always figured you were one of the younger active posters on the site.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

It's funny how you imagine ages on the internet; I always figured you were one of the younger active posters on the site.

I’m in my prime.




For chess players.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

He’s been good. I actually don’t know if any GM is elite - it’s so hard to judge, with luck, location, budgets before the cap, etc.

Lamoriello is the first one that comes to mind:

Trading down to get Brodeur (helps offset the 'luck' factor there)

Traded for Stevens, Richer, C Lemieux, Holik, Broten, Albelin (key members of 95 cup)

Drafted Niedermayer 3OA, Guerin 5OA, Rolston 11OA.

Maclean and Daneyko were picked before he started there, but would have emerged under his watch.


The Devils got to pick 2, 3, 3, 2 from '84-'87, but didn't pick top 10 again from 1992-2011 (A Larsson). He seems to have drafted and dealt to build a lot of great teams without lucking into super-duper generational talents (though Brodeur, Stevens (via Shanahan), and Niedermayer aren't far off).


Then helped to correct Burke's mess in TOR, and got NYI back on track, too.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

Ya, I guess I would likely consider an executive who had compiled the winningest record over 40 years elite. Being a GM is hard, and to do that relative to your peers is frankly indicative of elite management. Cups are meaningful, but Ws are also very meaningful.

I am honestly just wondering how you evaluate what a good GM is. Your "hot take" indicated that it's expected for even the best GMs to have bad seasons, but here you are saying that winning cups and going deep into the playoffs is critical to being a good GM, but also David Poile has won a ton of games as a GM but isn't elite under your criteria.

Just to unpack:

- Being bad from time to time is ok.
- It's hard to count on a GM to bring consistent results
- But also, winning consistently, like Poile, and doing this over a long time doesn't mean you're that good
- But winning cups is the most important part of your criteria, along with going deep in the playoffs.

To me, an elite GM would be someone who didn't land very high draft picks and had at least some consistent success, including playoffs. I haven't really seen anyone do that recently, the closest may have been Armstrong in STL but that is more looking like a case of their goalie got very hot for a short while. Some may be better than others at surrounding elite talent with a good supporting cast, but it seems to me that timing on when you get to be GM is the most important thing.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Lamoriello is the first one that comes to mind:

Trading down to get Brodeur (helps offset the 'luck' factor there)

Traded for Stevens, Richer, C Lemieux, Holik, Broten, Albelin (key members of 95 cup)

Drafted Niedermayer 3OA, Guerin 5OA, Rolston 11OA.

Maclean and Daneyko were picked before he started there, but would have emerged under his watch.


The Devils got to pick 2, 3, 3, 2 from '84-'87, but didn't pick top 10 again from 1992-2011 (A Larsson). He seems to have drafted and dealt to build a lot of great teams without lucking into super-duper generational talents (though Brodeur, Stevens (via Shanahan), and Niedermayer aren't far off).


Then helped to correct Burke's mess in TOR, and got NYI back on track, too.

Lou would be who I would pick, gun to my head. I’m not sure what his budgets generally were.

He didn’t trade for Stevens though. He was awarded him by the NHL as compensation for the Blues offersheeting Shanahan. He was the guy Lou wanted though. The Blues offered Cujo or Brindamour.

And then the Blues offersheeted Stevens the next year and he signed, but NJ matched and later successfully accused the Blues of tampering. The Blues had to give NJ 2 first rounders and $1.5M and the Devils still kept Stevens.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Lou would be who I would pick, gun to my head. I’m not sure what his budgets generally were.

He didn’t trade for Stevens though. He was awarded him by the NHL as compensation for the Blues offersheeting Shanahan. He was the guy Lou wanted though. The Blues offered Cujo or Brindamour.

And then the Blues offersheeted Stevens the next year and he signed, but NJ matched and later successfully accused the Blues of tampering. The Blues had to give NJ 2 first rounders and $1.5M and the Devils still kept Stevens.

I knew it was an offer sheet deal, but was just simplifying.

I didn’t know about the next year and the tampering, gonna give it a read. What a crazy time when those big names were getting passed around in related deals (add Pronger, Muller, etc - not offer sheets but part of related trade trees)

crazy to imagine how offersheet awards would play out today!


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[CSharp]

Not sure if anyone has noticed the trend of this team and it's not hard to see it and no one has mentioned it. This team was never and has never been built to play in the playoffs or go past the first round. From the first playoff series that went 7-games in the first round and then getting trounced by the Ducks during the rebuild should've been the first clue. If it wasn't enough of a clue, they got trounced again by the Ducks the second time, then by the Avs the 3rd time, then by the Star last year!

Now, comes the COVID shortened season format where the same teams play against each other in consecutive back-to-back playoff style format. Flames are losing, not badly, but they can't adapt to playing the same teams whereas other teams like Ottawa has adapted to beat the Flames. Other teams like the Leafs know they can just jam the front of the net with big bodies on the smaller Flames D. This team was built to win games on a regular season where they play different teams in which they don't have to adapt to playing against each other consecutively like in the playoffs. Smaller teams can survive in the regular season but playoffs are meant for teams that stock up on big, gritty players. So, Tre hasn't adapted the team for anything but a regular season matchups. This is why this team sucks so bad this year and they sucked so much in past playoffs. Tre has not learned much over the years and it's too bad that his only goal was to pursue a top end goalie to mask the holes he's got all over D and forward lines.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

You don't believe him? They were still chasing the playoffs for the next 3 years. It seems like more evidence of the owners chasing their tail...



Seriously? 3rd and 4th liners are out all the time against opposition's top players...especially their d-men. There may not be much difference between the bottom few players in the NHL and the top few on the AHL but the other 14 guys on each team are night/day.




This narrative is so silly. Winning negates all of those issues. There are only a few teams in the league who don't have to overpay for UFAs. Our presence on NTCs probably has as much to do with being a pretender as anything else.

I sometimes wonder if ARI and FLA fan(s) lament that they only get timid players who don't want any pressure?

For 7 years? Bennett started centering a line in the bottom 6 since 2016 when Gulutzan arrived. Bottom 6 generally speaking will play a lot against other bottom 6 lines. Backlund’s line slotted at #2 and was always the shutdown line. Monahan’s line was the top scoring line so they faced the opposition’s top shutdown line. So that left a lot of bottom 6 match ups for Bennett and he never took advantage of it.

Too many excuses have been thrown around for #93. He either can do it, or he can’t do it. In the playoffs, the switch turns on and he has shown time and time again he can, but the rest of those 82 games in Oct-Apr, he has shown he can’t. This has been the trend, not just a one off.


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[Sandman]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

It's funny how you imagine ages on the internet; I always figured you were one of the younger active posters on the site.

GioforPM is older than me, and I’m old as ****!!!

[genetic_phreek]

Treliving must still have hope that we can turn things around. He hasn't made any moves yet. Or is he even watching us play?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by genetic_phreek

Treliving must still have hope that we can turn things around. He hasn't made any moves yet. Or is he even watching us play?

It is just way too difficult to move the players that need to be moved right now. The only deals Treliving will be making before the offseason are for his pending UFAs.

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[1qqaaz]

The Flames are next to LA, New Jersey, Detroit, Anaheim and Ottawa in the standings.

Those 5 teams have on average 25 million in cap space.
Calgary has 1.7 million.

However, Buffalo is last and has even less cap space. So I guess it could be worse.