Brad Treliving needs to go

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I’m not sure I get the apprehension over needing to be successful for the new building. Do they only plan to be in it for a year or two?

A new building sells itself at the outset.

I think the most important about tanking right now isn't so much about the new building, but rather about the 2022 and 2023 drafts.

Both project to have players at the positions needed to give yourself a real shot at building a high-end team.

2022: Shane Wright followed by Brad Lambert, Matthew Savoie (centre, centre, centre)
2023: Connor Bedard and Matvei Michkov (centre, elite RW tracking as generational ala Kane)

These a strong top-ends of the draft.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1377657082724241413

The timing to me is almost perfect. This is the window that this team should tank in. Not only do we have some players we can cash-in on for additional future assets, but the drafts themselves have exactly what you'd want to see if you were entering that stage of your team building.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

There were a total of two first round draft picks that Treliving dealt. One resulted in Lindholm and Hanifin. The other was wasted but the team would have had no better present record with drafting, say, Noah Dobson instead of having Hamonic for a few years. And, as I showed the other day, he has collected and dealt almost the same number of lower draft picks.

Cap space - OK, Neal (and therefore Lucic) is not value at all. But where else are the savings and how does that translate into a an elite 1C, which is what the team lacks?

Lots of people are diagnosing the condition of the team. Not many have any realistic notions of how this team doesn't wind up in the same place using some other strategy.

So again are you asking for trade proposals that he needed to have executed? Or do you want to know the specific trades that he gave up draft picks which were losers?

I think those have been articulated already.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I’m not sure I get the apprehension over needing to be successful for the new building. Do they only plan to be in it for a year or two?

A new building sells itself at the outset.

In this economy???

Now 3 years from now maybe the dark cloud over the economy of this city will have been lifted and everything peachy keen once again.

But if not, you better be selling something remarkable to get the kind of money they have budgeted for from that place if you want the stands full but more importantly sell those big dollar corporate suites.

Aside from that though...going into next year there will have been 18-19 months of no revenue from games. Massive hit to the books.

You best have something to get seats in the stands UNTIL the next building sells itself.

We have been through the rebuild thing in this city and it was probably the gloomiest era in its history.

Young gun days there were often as few as 10000 people in the stands some nights...it was hard to give away tickets for a few years. The one saving grace for the club at the time is that though attendance was low, tickets themselves were still purchased. I highly doubt that would be the case this time around.

[neo45]

It’s time for Todd Button to go as well

If you count the rebuild as the time we dealt Iggy to the time we traded our first for Dougie he went 1 for 14 on his draft picks during that crucial time. The only “hit” was Monahan at 6th overall

The 2013 and 2014 drafts were crucial for this org and they were utterly botched. For all the flack Sutter gets for blowing his late first round picks, things haven’t improved much (if at all) since then. At least he drafted Backlund

Bring in Futa

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Sure is working well for the Rangers who openly wrote a letter to their fans over 3 years ago and embraced this "belief".

Drafted 9th, 1st and 2nd overall since then, added Artemi Panarin for no assets, Adam Fox blackmailed his way there, have 2 of the more highly touted young G's in the game...and it has gotten them....what?

They may still ascend to lofty heights but they dont have a new stadium to worry about filling in that exact time frame either, which has to be a major concern for this team

Check back in 3 seasons. Rebuilds are a 4-6 year process. The Avs are just now rising to the top of the cycle and they drafted MacKinnon more than 7 years ago.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

So again are you asking for trade proposals that he needed to have executed? Or do you want to know the specific trades that he gave up draft picks which were losers?

I think those have been articulated already.

I would like to see a list of the latter. Of the draft picks surrendered, which were outright loses, or which would have changed the trajectory of this team? Of course this leads into another completely speculative exercise where you would have to know the Flames draft list in each of the drafts. Do we know who they would have picked at 15 in 2015? I had heard Friedman and Maryk talk about the Flames liking Travis Koeneckny. I have never heard a rumor that they would have selected the revisionist historians sure favorite, Matt Barzal.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I don’t understand the apprehension when it comes to tanking anymore.

18 of the past 20 Stanley cup winners have players drafted in the top-3 developed internally.

Tanking to me is an absolute requirement.

It is 100% not the be all end all solution, but it gives you a shot. You need those foundational top-3 pieces - and from there what you do determines if you build a contending team, but you cannot reasonably expect to win a Stanley Cup without top-3 picks.

Exactly.

Teams are built through drafting, trading and free agency signings.

Signing free agents is difficult as most small market Canadian teams aren't the first choice and have to overpay.

Winning trades is hard when many players have you on their no-trade list. GMs end up having to settle for something else. (The NHL really needs to fix that IMO as it's a major issue. I know the NBA has a much more strict policy to prevent nearly every player from getting one as soon as they are eligible).

The draft is really the only place the a team like the Flames can expect to find elite topline talent and it shouldn't a secret that those types tend to appear more in the top 3-5 in most drafts.

If your plan is to hopefully find Zetterberg or Datsyuk in the later rounds, prepare to be disappointed.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by transplant99

...You best have something to get seats in tYou guys can have a bunch now, if you would like.he stands UNTIL the next building sells itself...

That's it. Sign 2023 UFA Nathan MacKinnon.

...profit.

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[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by neo45

It’s time for Todd Button to go as well...

Hahaha. No.

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[TOfan]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Check back in 3 seasons. Rebuilds are a 4-6 year process. The Avs are just now rising to the top of the cycle and they drafted MacKinnon more than 7 years ago.

At least.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Hahaha. No.

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Why would that be something you would laugh about? Button is mediocre at his job and has somehow lasted 20 years. Sure you can point to the occasional pick that punched above their weight, but guess what, the entire league has those.

Disagree with it, but it's hardly a laughable position.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Check back in 3 seasons. Rebuilds are a 4-6 year process. The Avs are just now rising to the top of the cycle and they drafted MacKinnon more than 7 years ago.

Colorado drafted in the top-three twice in the four years prior to drafting MacKinnon. They wandered the desert for years.

I would say it is a six-year process, if you are lucky.

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[transplant99]

Originally Posted by nik-

Why would that be something you would laugh about? Button is mediocre at his job and has somehow lasted 20 years. Sure you can point to the occasional pick that punched above their weight, but guess what, the entire league has those.

Disagree with it, but it's hardly a laughable position.

I would say that overall the last 6 or 7 years have been good to great drafting by this team.

Weird to want to move on from that IMO.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I would like to see a list of the latter. Of the draft picks surrendered, which were outright loses, or which would have changed the trajectory of this team? Of course this leads into another completely speculative exercise where you would have to know the Flames draft list in each of the drafts. Do we know who they would have picked at 15 in 2015? I had heard Friedman and Maryk talk about the Flames liking Travis Koeneckny. I have never heard a rumor that they would have selected the revisionist historians sure favorite, Matt Barzal.

This is going nowhere. He tried to improve the team around the core he inherited. He hasn’t done it to my satisfaction. Certain trades were mind numbingly bad, like Lazar and Hamonic. Certain UFA signings were disastrous. Coaching hires missed the mark. Useless deadline acquisitions. Wasted assets on multiple goalies. And lots to give him credit for too. Seven years is long enough to look at the scorecard and make a determination of whether you want him to be the guy taking the next step.

Trying to guess what could have, should have happened is a waste of time.

If you feel no GM could have done better than what he did then fill your boots as some like to say.

But saying people aren’t being specific enough in their commentary just seems flat out incorrect.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by nik-

Why would that be something you would laugh about? Button is mediocre at his job and has somehow lasted 20 years. Sure you can point to the occasional pick that punched above their weight, but guess what, the entire league has those.

Disagree with it, but it's hardly a laughable position.

Likely doesn’t have much to backup his position besides blind homerism

The guy in charge watched Jankowski dominate a Canadian high school and thought he was going to be better than Tervainen and Vasilevsky. It’s definitely not a laughable position

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by nik-

Why would that be something you would laugh about? Button is mediocre at his job and has somehow lasted 20 years. Sure you can point to the occasional pick that punched above their weight, but guess what, the entire league has those.

Disagree with it, but it's hardly a laughable position.

2013-14 is a disingenuous cut-off to gauge his job performance, when his next two drafts produced at least five NHL players—four of which were selected in the 2nd-6th rounds. "Occasional pick," indeed. It most certainly is a laughable suggestion.

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[nik-]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I would say that overall the last 6 or 7 years have been good to great drafting by this team.

Weird to want to move on from that IMO.

Good to great? We deserve to suffer with grading like this.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

2013-14 is a disingenuous cut-off to gauge his job performance, when his next two drafts produced at least five NHL players—four of which were selected in the 2nd-6th rounds. "Occasional pick," indeed. It most certainly is a laughable suggestion.

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It’s a fair cutoff for how we drafted during our shortened rebuild, if I wanted to be disingenuous I would have included 2012 which was his worst work

But yes 3 crucial drafts in a row were utterly botched under his watch

[Igottago]

I'm not sure what the Flames are going to do, but if this situation doesn't warrant at the very least a strong consideration of a GM change, I'm not sure what would. The rebuild has fallen flat on its face and is ending in embarrassing fashion. The core players built around are going to have to now be traded for low return. You can make any excuse in the book, but the results are what matters. The team is now in a pretty precarious position, if the upcoming trades aren't good ones, it'll set them back years more. That is all under Treliving's watch.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Again with this empty complaint of trading draft picks. Is it that unusual that he has traded picks? Is he the only GM out there trading picks? Has he not acquired picks himself and, if anything, appears to be in position to do so once again?

You can make this complaint about any person who has held the position as a GM in the modern history of the game. If Treliving were to be fired, his replacement would almost certainly trade draft picks as well.

Of course GMs will trade draft picks. They should look at both outbound and inbound

People have discussed the importance of home grown talent, and specifically that if the market is viewed as less desirable, and less able to attract free agents, the organization is going to need to rely on its picks more

That is why the Hamonic trade was so bad. Three valuable picks for a D man who was an all around good team guy, but nothing special on the ice