Brad Treliving needs to go

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Is this part of the Wizard’s plan?

Brodie was pretty well aware he wasn’t a priority here

Do the same for all of the skilled players?

not sure where you are going with this, but it seems petty.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

His biggest failure was not working around Mony, Johnny & Gio since 2015.
It was continuing to bank of them after 2018, 2019 & 2020.

Many people saw it wasn't going to work and was getting worse, he either still believed on them to get it done or he couldn't make trades happen.

The only positive of our situation now is there's no apologists or excuses left for this core (except maybe you).
Even BT will finally know its a failure, even if he was slow to get to this realization.

Seriously?...all those guys were top 40 in the entire league in scoring and the team was 2nd in the entire league in points. Gio won the freaking Norris trophy....and you are advocating that it was a mistake to not trade all those guys at that point????

Wow...thats next level revisionist history.

Give Treliving all the blame in the world for not making changes after last season (even though he did) but to pick that ^^ time frame as a time to trade those guys is ridiculous.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by TOfan

not sure where you are going with this, but it seems petty.

I don’t understand your remark, and my post is really not a hard thing to understand.

Do you think a player who knows he is being shopped is going to bring the same level of commitment as someone who isn’t?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

His biggest failure was not working around Mony, Johnny & Gio since 2015.
It was continuing to bank of them after 2018, 2019 & 2020.

Many people saw it wasn't going to work and was getting worse, he either still believed on them to get it done or he couldn't make trades happen.

The only positive of our situation now is there's no apologists or excuses left for this core (except maybe you).
Even BT will finally know its a failure, even if he was slow to get to this realization.

I’ve been saying all year, prior to the coaching change, that those guys were not good enough. A lot of people insisted the right coach would unlock their scoring.

I guess my point is that, with them as a starting point, improving the team wasn’t an option. You can’t build around them and you can’t get better players than them by trading them. So Treliving in hindsight maybe trades then for high picks, tanks, and doesn’t go out and acquire guys like Lindholm, or Hanifin, or More recently Tanev and Markstrom.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Seriously?...all those guys were top 40 in the entire league in scoring and the team was 2nd in the entire league in points. Gio won the freaking Norris trophy....and you are advocating that it was a mistake to not trade all those guys at that point????

Wow...thats next level revisionist history.

Give Treliving all the blame in the world for not making changes after last season (even though he did) but to pick that ^^ time frame as a time to trade those guys is ridiculous.

Where did I say trade all of them??
At least 1 of these 3 should have been moved though.

It was clear after the Avs series that our top line was unable to perform in playoff style hockey and some of us suggested a change at that time.
Trading Gio at the peak of his value (considering his age) also would have been good management.

It's not revisionist if I said the same thing at that time. The term you're looking for is "correct".

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I don’t understand your remark, and my post is really not a hard thing to understand.

Do you think a player who knows he is being shopped is going to bring the same level of commitment as someone who isn’t?

Monahan has to know he was being shopped in the last year before his NTC kicks in even though it’s a pretty weak one. Just like Johnny this year.

I’m not sure shopped is correct. It’s been reported he was part of one potential deal.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Just as an example

Bill Guerin took over the Wild after the 18-19 season where they finished dead last in the Central division.

His first trade wasn't until February of 2020. After enough time to evaluate what he had and what his pieces were worth.

Ken Holland came in after that same 18-19 season with the only team in the West worse than Guerins Wild.

He made one trade that summer. Lucic for Neal.

He didnt make another one until the TD in February of 20.

Maybe Im wrong but I would expect any GM to do the same here....SOP it seems

Those are good examples. On the other hand, Burke was quite active his first year on the job in TO. Same with his first year in Anaheim.

I really don't see it as a choice of new players vs. new GM. IMO a new GM would make moves on the timeline that made the most sense to him or her. It's really about trusting their judgment vs. current approach.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I don’t understand your remark, and my post is really not a hard thing to understand.

Do you think a player who knows he is being shopped is going to bring the same level of commitment as someone who isn’t?

Depends on the individual. Some might find it a distraction, others might not.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by TOfan

In other words, you would just tell the new guy to 'be smarter'. That's good. Meteoric rise to greatness after that, I'm sure.

Aren't other GM's buying players out, or is it just Treliving?

Brad combines buying out players and buying out coaches. A rare combo in the NHL. My response was to the idea that the owners would not want to buy out another contract. There are many reasons why the Flames should get rid of Brad, very few as to why they should keep him (stability and he is learning on on job being the only ones I have heard). My response was a response to the idea that the owners would want to save money by keeping the guy who is costing them money.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

I think everyone in the hockey world knows how broken this team is, there's no way anyone would take a year to evaluate.

If the GM was changing I think they'd be hired with the clear mandate to get to work as well.
They'd also be told to communicate closely with Sutter on what we have and what should get moved.

Joining a bad, small-market Canadian team to carry out a rebuild is not an attractive prospect for a GM candidate. If he has to consult with his famously grouchy coach (a former GM himself) on the makeup of the roster, it’s an even less attractive job.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Joining a bad, small-market Canadian team to carry out a rebuild is not an attractive prospect for a GM candidate. If he has to consult with his famously grouchy coach (a former GM himself) on the makeup of the roster, it’s an even less attractive job.

We could find someone who has never been a GM before and has no experience, that is what we did with Brad.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

We could find someone who has never been a GM before and has no experience, that is what we did with Brad.

So what's the logic behind this, 'someone else'?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

We could find someone who has never been a GM before and has no experience, that is what we did with Brad.

This seems like a terrible idea given the amount of work that needs to be done. I think a rookie GM would be the worst possible option right now.

I maintain that I believe Treliving is most likely best positioned to oversee changes over the next year at least.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TOfan

So what's the logic behind this, 'someone else'?

Because SOMEONE has to PAY!

[868904]

I don't think you can ever blame just one aspect for a teams failure.

The coaches weren't very good and the players have for whatever reason lacked the emotionally maturity to deal with adversity.

I like to look at how players did before they came to the Flames to assess what kind of character they have.

Johnny was a winner before he showed up in Calgary. He won the USHL championship, followed by WJC gold and then the NCAA title. He was the driver for those teams too. His first playoffs in Calgary was pretty good too. His Game 3 vs the Ducks was arguably his greatest playoff performance ever. From my viewpoint, he has gotten softer since earlier in his career, he isn't battling and engaging as much, maybe that's because of the punishment he has taken. The smaller NHL ice surface may also have had a big impact on this ability to dominate and this gets compounded in the playoffs. I do believe that if Johnny were traded to a contender and not asked to be "top dog", he would flourish. Others have said it before, but he is a Phil Kessel type and I can totally see him leading a playoff in scoring on a championship team.

Tkachuk was a winner too before coming to Calgary. OHL championship and Memorial Cup. It can be argued that Marner was driving the bus for those runs though, but Tkachuk was a big contributor.

Backlund has had some good performances at the Worlds, including captaining a Gold medal team. Up until this year, he has been really good. I don't doubt that the new baby is really affecting him. Home life is hard with a new child, especially for millennial couples.

Monahan and Bennett have never really won anything. Hard to gauge where they stand. Monahan scores a lot of OT goals, but these are 3 on 3 gimmicks which I don't put any stock into. Bennett has always produced in the playoffs, but to my eye, he gets a lot of bounces in the playoffs; his physical play in the playoffs isn't questioned though.

Lindholm wasn't much of a winner before coming to Calgary either, but that doesn't mean I don't think he's can be. He should be a lot better in the playoffs then he has shown.

I would imagine that this mix of success is pretty common for most "core groups" in the NHL, but what it says to me is that the mix here (coaches, players, management) just hasn't been right. This also doesn't mean that Monahan, Bennett and Lindholm aren't winners but they certainly haven't shown an ability to take their game to the next level. There are "winners" here but probably not enough. That's on the GM.

To me, it doesn't matter what system you play, this team is just too slow and too small. It is poorly constructed.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Because SOMEONE has to PAY!

The audacity of people thinking that the one responsible for putting this together should lose their job.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by nik-

The audacity of people thinking that the one responsible for putting this together should lose their job.

I just happen to think that the situation is more complicated, and I would hope ownership makes this evaluation very carefully.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I just happen to think that the situation is more complicated, and I would hope ownership makes this evaluation very carefully.

Complicated in resolution. Not in whether we should continue to follow this failed process.

This organization needs to stop letting analysis paralysis handcuff them into doing nothing until it's too late.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Joining a bad, small-market Canadian team to carry out a rebuild is not an attractive prospect for a GM candidate. If he has to consult with his famously grouchy coach (a former GM himself) on the makeup of the roster, it’s an even less attractive job.

You forgot weak prospect pool, no superstars and ownership that wants to be "competitive" every year.

I thought we were discussing if BT deserves to stay.
If you're saying he has to stay because no one will want to take on this mess, I won't disagree with you there.

[Calgary4LIfe]

This team is 100% a Treliving team. This is his team, and he is fully responsible for it.


It doesn't matter that Giordano and Backlund were "Sutter Picks" - so was Ferland and Brodie, but they are both gone.


It doesn't matter that Gaudreau and Monahan were "Feaster Picks" - so were a lot of other players that are gone.


What matters is that Treliving has chosen to retain these players, signed them to contracts with his own signature on them, and brought in everyone else too. This is his team.


This is the first season in a while where I feel "there isn't a glimmer of hope". This is the first season in the last two that we can legitimately point at this roster and say "it needs a major overhaul, at the very least".


In 2017-18, the talk was: "If this team only had a good goalie and a good coach". FU Elliott and Gulutzan!!



In 2018-19, this team was first in the west and looking spectacular most nights. The talk was centred around "rattled, looking to show who they are, and the experience will serve them well".


In 2019-20, this team seemed to have addressed most of the demons, and were thought to have a somewhat resilient season rebounding from the Peters' situation and so on. Were mere seconds from being up 3-1 in a series against Dallas, who went on to the Finals.



2020-21 - Flames plugged a big hole with Markstrom - finally filling a long-term glaring need on the roster. Halfway through the season, they picked up a good coach too. What is the 'excuse' this year for not making a move? What is left?


I was all for ADDING to the core if possible. Trying to make a legitimately good 2nd line to take the heat off Gaudreau and Monahan in the playoffs. Tkachuk - Lindholm aren't that - not by themselves.



Now? I am ok with anyone being traded. ANYONE.


Know who I actually WANT to keep around?


Mangiapane - the ONLY established player that I feel should be retained. Valimaki and Kylington should be retained too I guess.


Everyone else I am ok with moving on from. Some I will be sad to see leave - mainly Backlund and Giordano. Some I will hesitate on - like Gaudreau (can still be a ppg gamebreaker after-all, and Monahan and his 'clutch goals' in the past)...



I am ok with a complete rebuild. I am ok with a retool. Sutter being brought in now has exposed (to me) what this team is now. I couldn't make that bet with Gulutzan, Peters and Ward driving the bus, but now I see that this is a team full of passengers at the moment, and I don't feel it matters any longer who you have driving the bus.


Rebuild, or retool. Fire Treliving, keep him around. Just don't bring the same group back. There isn't a legitimate excuse for doing so after this season.