Blow it up!

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

When things get back to normal our division will be weak:
VGK = legit
SEA = ?
EDM = meh
LAK = on their way up
VAN = TBD
SJ = could still have a run or two, but not exactly scary
ANA = years away

One real team, and 7 pretenders.

Get to the conf. finals and anything can happen from there.

"Get in and anything can happen" might actually be true for a couple years. But it's still a terrible plan.

The Flames are the real pretenders here. What’s their playoff record over their last 4 playoff series?

4-16.
Absolutely putrid.

Based on the history of their past playoff series and this season’s performance, I don’t give the Flames a chance against the Avalanche, the Knights and even the Jets and the Oilers. Obviously we hate the Oilers around here, but how less denial and a little intellectual honesty here.

The Jets are an extremely well run organization, they draft well and their GM makes few mistakes. The Oilers have 2 elite superstars centers and a swath of contracts coming up that’ll give them a lot of cap space over the next couple years to fill out their wings.

I’d rather start the rebuild now then watch this goal-less trash we’re witnessing. If someone can tell me where the goals will come from next season, then I implore you to try to change my mind.

[1_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

When things get back to normal our division will be weak:
VGK = legit
SEA = ?
EDM = meh
LAK = on their way up
VAN = TBD
SJ = could still have a run or two, but not exactly scary
ANA = years away

One real team, and 7 pretenders.

Get to the conf. finals and anything can happen from there.

"Get in and anything can happen" might actually be true for a couple years. But it's still a terrible plan.

And if we don't make significant changes we will be by far the weakest team in that weak division in perpetuity. I'm tired of mediocrity. Burn it down and be really bad for a few years in order to challenge for a cup again within my limited lifetime.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

The Flames are the real pretenders here. What’s their playoff record over their last 4 playoff series?

4-16.
Absolutely putrid.

Based on the history of their past playoff series and this season’s performance, I don’t give the Flames a chance against the Avalanche, the Knights and even the Jets and the Oilers. Obviously we hate the Oilers around here, but how less denial and a little intellectual honesty here.

The Jets are an extremely well run organization, they draft well and their GM makes few mistakes. The Oilers have 2 elite superstars centers and a swath of contracts coming up that’ll give them a lot of cap space over the next couple years to fill out their wings.

I’d rather start the rebuild now then watch this goal-less trash we’re witnessing. If someone can tell me where the goals will come from next season, then I implore you to try to change my mind.

The Avs and Jets are irrelevant after this year. I've been sure this group had no chance to contend since the Avs series. But, all things considered (Markstrom), it's worth a shot at re-tooling around Lindholm+Dube+Mangi+Hanifin+Andersson+Vali. You're not getting premium futures for our guys with term right now...you're more likely to get those at their final TDL.

The Oilers cap space comes from: RNH, Larsson, Barrie, Russell, and 2.3M less buyout. Klefbom coming back helps them, but they still need to improve their 1B goalie and give Yamamoto a raise.

After replacing the top 4 d-man, they might have $8-10M left to replace/re-sign RNH and add another forward. Plopping another 4-5M forward onto that team does not make them a contender.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Drunk Uncle

Bringing it back to the topic at hand "blow it up": this is not the time to blow it up IMO.

To me, the concept of blowing it up is based on the top 6 mix and more specifically their lack of ability to thrive when checking gets tight. That leads back to the conversation of whether we have a good enough top 6 to win it all. Daryl is part of the answer to fix that IMO and his track record shows that he can take teams without generational elite talents and make finals. I give him the chance to do that with the remaining years of his contract. If he can't get it done... that is the time to blow it up.

Having said that, I absolutely think a re-tool of the top 6 would benefit the cause, and if there is a deal out there to improve the top 6, you make that trade/signing. The caveat for me is that we have to get the better forward back in the deal and you have to consider the expansion draft implications. If you can't get the better player, you don't make the trade or you've just put yourself into re-build mode.

Ask yourself honestly, how many of those deals do you really think are out there? IMO, the answer is zero or we would have made a deal. I think the idea of holding Treliving accountable for not making trades that don't exist (as many have) isn't a reflection of Treliving's performance.

Iginla and Kipprusoff were pretty elite.
Kopitar and Doughty were pretty elite.

I see no one on the Flames roster that can carry the team like those guys. Maybe Markstrom if he gets hot but he likely has the guys in front of him dragging him down.

Either way I'm not banking on another miracle run that has happened once in franchise history. Nor do I see any resemblance to the Kings who were a big heavy team and extremely deep. The only common factor is Daryl and he can't make up for 22 other guys.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

The Avs and Jets are irrelevant after this year. I've been sure this group had no chance to contend since the Avs series. But, all things considered (Markstrom), it's worth a shot at re-tooling around Lindholm+Dube+Mangi+Hanifin+Andersson+Vali. You're not getting premium futures for our guys with term right now...you're more likely to get those at their final TDL.

The Oilers cap space comes from: RNH, Larsson, Barrie, Russell, and 2.3M less buyout. Klefbom coming back helps them, but they still need to improve their 1B goalie and give Yamamoto a raise.

After replacing the top 4 d-man, they might have $8-10M left to replace/re-sign RNH and add another forward. Plopping another 4-5M forward onto that team does not make them a contender.

So explain to me how this Flames team, devoid of any scoring ability for most of Treliving’s tenure, is going to magically fix their scoring woes without any superstars or a superstar center like many of the teams I quote do have.

The 5 skaters you listed quite simply do not match up against the Mackinnon’s & Rantanan’s, the McDavid’s & Draisaitl’s, the Scheifele’s & Connor’s, the Stone’s & the Pietrangelo’s. If that’s the core you want to move forward with, then we can pick 13th in the draft in perpetuity.

At some point, someone in that Flames organization has to step up, show some damn leadership and stop the cycle of insanity. Going on 30+ years of good, but never good enough. Partial rebuilds and doubling down with star wingers. Enough is enough already. Build up the middle, build a quality foundation and then added your periphery pieces from there once they’re ready.

[Mayo]

I might order my Bedard jersey in the next couple of weeks.

The NHL must see the hype the BoA has gotten this last year and the thought of two generational Connor's on opposite side's of Alberta is too good to pass up - it needs to happen

Throw in Connor Zary for good measure to tip the scales in our favour

[Drunk Uncle]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Iginla and Kipprusoff were pretty elite.
Kopitar and Doughty were pretty elite.

I see no one on the Flames roster that can carry the team like those guys. Maybe Markstrom if he gets hot but he likely has the guys in front of him dragging him down.

Either way I'm not banking on another miracle run that has happened once in franchise history. Nor do I see any resemblance to the Kings who were a big heavy team and extremely deep. The only common factor is Daryl and he can't make up for 22 other guys.

I get what you are saying and I'm not saying you are wrong, however I'd like to see what Sutter can do with a full year and an opportunity to implement the system he wants to play before making that call.

In the entire time we've had SM and JG, we haven't had a coach that focused on defense as a priority. In that same window we've never had the talent to play run and gun with the best teams in the league... which we have tried over and over. I think it's hard to say definitively the personnel we have can't do it.

Could it lead to blowing up the team in a year? Absolutely. Is now the time to do it? Not in my opinion.

[Mathgod]

There might be no other way to go, unfortunately.

Flames are Buffalo-North. I have no idea how anyone can think this team will be competitive next season with the bulk of this roster still in place. If this team is going to suck either way, might as well speed up the rebuild by stockpiling futures now.

Fully aware that Sutter didn't come here to coach during a rebuild, but is he really looking at this roster and seeing a winner next year or the year after that?

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

There might be no other way to go, unfortunately.

Flames are Buffalo-North. I have no idea how anyone can think this team will be competitive next season with the bulk of this roster still in place. If this team is going to suck either way, might as well speed up the rebuild by stockpiling futures now.

Fully aware that Sutter didn't come here to coach during a rebuild, but is he really looking at this roster and seeing a winner next year or the year after that?

Maybe Sutter has a legal claim against Tre for breach of representation and warranty.

[Roof-Daddy]

At least we'll always have that season the Flames finished 2nd overall and then got creamed in the playoffs.

What a great ride this core took us on lol

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

At least we'll always have that season the Flames finished 2nd overall and then got creamed in the playoffs.

What a great ride this core took us on lol

It was a spectacular crash and burn.

[bigpete]

It's still amazing to me how they went from so so good to so so bad in such a short period of time. From such a young exciting team who could score at will to ...what they are now. No creativity, no driving the net, no tic tac toe pretty plays, no odd man rushes. The personnel are mostly the same and the core guys are in their prime years right now. Just baffling.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Iginla and Kipprusoff were pretty elite.
Kopitar and Doughty were pretty elite.

I see no one on the Flames roster that can carry the team like those guys. Maybe Markstrom if he gets hot but he likely has the guys in front of him dragging him down.

Either way I'm not banking on another miracle run that has happened once in franchise history. Nor do I see any resemblance to the Kings who were a big heavy team and extremely deep. The only common factor is Daryl and he can't make up for 22 other guys.

Agreed. 2004 team talent level is ridiculously underrated. Robyn Regehr was elite. He made team Canada ahead of Bouwmeester, who only made it as injury replacement. Bouwmeester is largely considered elite #1 Damn, yet prime Regehr was better. Leopold made team USA and IIRC was their top pairing DMan.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temp...ey_team_roster

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by bigpete

It's still amazing to me how they went from so so good to so so bad in such a short period of time. From such a young exciting team who could score at will to ...what they are now. No creativity, no driving the net, no tic tac toe pretty plays, no odd man rushes. The personnel are mostly the same and the core guys are in their prime years right now. Just baffling.

Because key members of that core:

A) Can’t score when faced with tight checking.

B) Got complacent and didn’t adapt their game.

C) Can’t score when tasked with being responsible defensively.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Because key members of that core:

A) Can’t score when faced with tight checking.

B) Got complacent and didn’t adapt their game.

C) Can’t score when tasked with being responsible defensively.

This is the most succinct and damning description of what has gone wrong that I have seen.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Because key members of that core:

A) Can’t score when faced with tight checking.

B) Got complacent and didn’t adapt their game.

C) Can’t score when tasked with being responsible defensively.

I can’t think of a game the Flames have won recently when the opposition didn’t have subpar defending and/or goaltending that night. The win versus the Jets? Brossoit was bad. The loss? Hellebyuck was good. The wins against Ottawa versus the losses? Goaltending. Anderson was bad when they beat Toronto.

They win when the other team lets them win. They lose when the other team plays good D or has good goaltending. Because they can’t fight through those things.

[Mathgod]

With the trade deadline looming, who gets dealt?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

With the trade deadline looming, who gets dealt?

Unless something major happens, I hope no one. I don't want this GM making a single move more

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

With the trade deadline looming, who gets dealt?

Ryan and Rittich.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Ryan and Rittich.

Man I feel bad for Rittich. He was nearly in tears tonight when asked about the possibility of a trade.