Brad Treliving needs to go

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I would say either Valimaki or Nesterov replaces Hamonic. He was terrible last season and his days as a top 4 defenseman are over.

Point was that Hamonic had a role as defensive stalwart on second pairing. No he wasn’t good enough at it, but it’s more or less what he was supposed to be

The top pairing was Brodie-Gio, and like I say, Andersson is more of a middle pairing guy (or even bottom on a good team)

Valimaki and Nesterov are bottom 6 guys.

With Father Time catching Gio and Brodie not there to skate and move the puck, this team doesn’t have a top pairing

[BoLevi]

Tre has never had the resources to build a team like a small, undesirable market team needs to be built: ie through the draft.

Having said that, he has done a poor job at maximizing the situation he has been presented with.

I think the fanbase doesn't help. Small market teams need to be ruthless with their asset management, and the Flames have always been cowardly about maximizing their assets (late on an iggy trade, maybe late on a gio trade, etc). This is a lack of recognition of your window.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Going off what was reported

I thought that what was reported is that Brad put off talking seriously to Brodie until he was done with Markstrom, and when he finally got to him, TJ went fake where

Fine, the GM has priorities

How many times do you need to tell a guy you don’t want/prioritize him that badly before he just walks?

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Point was that Hamonic had a role as defensive stalwart on second pairing. No he wasn’t good enough at it, but it’s more or less what he was supposed to be

The top pairing was Brodie-Gio, and like I say, Andersson is more of a middle pairing guy (or even bottom on a good team)

Valimaki and Nesterov are bottom 6 guys.

With Father Time catching Gio and Brodie not there to skate and move the puck, this team doesn’t have a top pairing

Pretty sure the Flames expected Andersson to fill in Brodie’s role and he failed spectacularly

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

Tre has never had the resources to build a team like a small, undesirable market team needs to be built: ie through the draft.

Having said that, he has done a poor job at maximizing the situation he has been presented with.

I think the fanbase doesn't help. Small market teams need to be ruthless with their asset management, and the Flames have always been cowardly about maximizing their assets (late on an iggy trade, maybe late on a gio trade, etc). This is a lack of recognition of your window.

That’s why the Hamonic acquisition is so wrong. In a market where draft picks are essential, he threw away three of them

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Pretty sure the Flames expected Andersson to fill in Brodie’s role and he failed spectacularly

Yes, they saw, and paid for, something that isn’t quite what they had hoped at this point.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by TOfan

How about St. Louis? Do you consider ROR to be an elite C? He’s good, no question, but what would he be on the Oilers? 3C? How about Winnipeg? Washington? Pittsburgh? LA? TB? Toronto?......point being, he’s not a hands done 1C on quite a few teams. He wasn’t a 1C in Buffalo or Colorado when he left those teams either.

Well ROR is definitely an elite 2 way shutdown center. So I’d put him right at the top on the Flames. He won the Selke, the Conn Smythe and the Byng. He’s hard to play against, barely takes any penalties, wins a million faceoffs and plays in the guts of the game, he’s legit. I mean, sure it took him a little while to reach his potential, but St. Louis also had a great foundation for him to shine whereas Buffalo and Colorado didn’t, they were just a collection of rebuilding pieces with no leadership, no direction and no identity.

Make no mistake though, having an elite #1 center or even better, an elite 1-2 punch is the core of your team’s core. They win you championships whereas the Flames have proven for decades on end that building around wingers peaks at early playoff exits or none at all. I don’t think it’s a coincidence either that the top 3 teams of this division also happen to have the top #1 centers. It is unquestionably the way you build your team and every GM in the NHL should know this.


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[868904]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Well ROR is definitely an elite 2 way shutdown center. So I’d put him right at the top on the Flames. He won the Selke, the Conn Smythe and the Byng. He’s hard to play against, barely takes any penalties, wins a million faceoffs and plays in the guts of the game, he’s legit. I mean, sure it took him a little while to reach his potential, but St. Louis also had a great foundation for him to shine whereas Buffalo and Colorado didn’t, they were just a collection of rebuilding pieces with no leadership, no direction and no identity.

Make no mistake though, having an elite #1 center or even better, an elite 1-2 punch is the core of your team’s core. They win you championships whereas the Flames have proven for decades on end that building around wingers peaks at early playoff exits or none at all. I don’t think it’s a coincidence either that the top 3 teams of this division also happen to have the top #1 centers. It is unquestionably the way you build your team and every GM in the NHL should know this.


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I wonder if there is a deal there in Tkachuk for ROR?

ROR has two more years and is a UFA. Do the Blues want to extend him to another big contract? They have Schenn in for another 8 years! Plus Thomas looks like a real good centremen who could use more ice time.

Tkachuk's contract is complex, he's got one more year after this and is RFA, but we know about the leverage he has. I'm nervous about the Flames committing dollars and term for him and they will have to pay through the nose to keep him.

I kind of feel like I'd rather take ROR for the two years guaranteed and maybe try and extend him afterwards. If he's anything like Bergeron, he'll still be good in his mid 30's.

You would think having ROR, Lindholm, Backlund down the middle would suit Sutter just fine for the next two seasons.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by TOfan

In theory, I agree. I would like to see a little more long term thinking with the Flames, but look at their history. They have consistently short cut themselves and this approach was well underway before Treliving came about. This is an ownership issue, not the GM. I would argue, if there was one fatal flaw with this rebuild, it was Sam Bennett not realizing his potential, or even close to it.

Back to Winnipeg, they also had the good fortune of leaping several draft spots in a strong draft the ultimately landed them PLD. This isn’t unique to Winnipeg either. Dallas kept several spots to have Heiskanen. Philly drafted 2OA.

The Flames haven’t had that stroke of luck.

Well I guess we should just fire ownership right? Like send Murray Edwards and co their pink slip and let Brad Treliving go on forever. I don’t know what ownership says, I don’t think any of us can know for certain. Everyone though ownership was too cheap to hire an “elite coach” and they proved a lot of people wrong. So maybe picking on ownership is not fair. They’re not the ones trying to execute the game plan either, that’s 100% Brad. We’re pretty fortunate in that we have an ownership group that can spend to the cap and do not meddle. So again, comes down to Treliving. He’s had a very ideal situation and let’s call a spade a spade here. He severely underperformed just like his players did.

I can see very clearly that you’re a Brad Treliving fan, so I’d be curious to know where you draw the line. At what point would you say enough is enough Brad, you’ve had your chance?

Also, that #2 pick in Laine or PLD is not what makes the Jets good. Heck, they were kicking our butts without Laine or PLD in the line up. The Jets are good because their core is lead by an elite #1 center in Mark Scheifele and they have built through patience by drafting great core players in every position. They have depth everywhere on the ice and if they still had Byfuglien patrolling the blue line, they probably would’ve been perennial Stanley Cup contenders last season and this season.


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[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Point was that Hamonic had a role as defensive stalwart on second pairing. No he wasn’t good enough at it, but it’s more or less what he was supposed to be

The top pairing was Brodie-Gio, and like I say, Andersson is more of a middle pairing guy (or even bottom on a good team)

Valimaki and Nesterov are bottom 6 guys.

With Father Time catching Gio and Brodie not there to skate and move the puck, this team doesn’t have a top pairing

I think the notion is Hanifin/Tanev = puck moving top pair. A little less offence, a little more D. Gio/Andersson as a solid 2nd pair. Longer term - Valimaki/Andersson.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by 868904

I wonder if there is a deal there in Tkachuk for ROR?

ROR has two more years and is a UFA. Do the Blues want to extend him to another big contract? They have Schenn in for another 8 years! Plus Thomas looks like a real good centremen who could use more ice time.

Tkachuk's contract is complex, he's got one more year after this and is RFA, but we know about the leverage he has. I'm nervous about the Flames committing dollars and term for him and they will have to pay through the nose to keep him.

I kind of feel like I'd rather take ROR for the two years guaranteed and maybe try and extend him afterwards. If he's anything like Bergeron, he'll still be good in his mid 30's.

You would think having ROR, Lindholm, Backlund down the middle would suit Sutter just fine for the next two seasons.

Would St Louis be interested in trading their Selke award winning #1 center who’s lead the team in scoring since he arrived there? I would suspect he’s as untouchable as it gets. It took St. Louis forever to find themselves an elite #1 center, then they finally do and they go on to win the Stanley Cup.

I don’t think Doug Armstrong wants to do the Flames any favors here. He’ll look to throw us anchors for Tkachuk just like he did to the Sabres.


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[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Would St Louis be interested in trading their Selke award winning #1 center who’s lead the team in scoring since he arrived there? I would suspect he’s as untouchable as it gets. It took St. Louis forever to find themselves an elite #1 center, then they finally do and they go on to win the Stanley Cup.

I don’t think Doug Armstrong wants to do the Flames any favors here. He’ll look to throw us anchors for Tkachuk just like he did to the Sabres.


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He is already 30-years old on a veteran-laden team that is right on the playoff bubble, and has a worse record than the Flames in their last ten games. I don't think it would happen, but St Louis is not really in a position to be laughing off trade conversations with anyone.

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[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

The Marskstrom move can most definitely be questioned as it was not a slam dunk good move. Not saying it was a mistake but I think it can be debated.

Just like some of his moves that failed can certainly be defended.

I think if the defense itself was inaccurate that's not the case (Demko took his job)

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

He is already 30-years old on a veteran-laden team that is right on the playoff bubble, and has a worse record than the Flames in their last ten games. I don't think it would happen, but St Louis is not really in a position to be laughing off trade conversations with anyone.

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Well I’m sure they’d also like a healthy Tarasenko who they’ve relied on to score 30-40 goals for them every season. St. Louis doesn’t need a ton of run support because they’re usually very stout defensively,m. But if Doug Armstrong made one critical error it was acquiring Justin Faulk and extending him when Pietrangelo was due for a raise. I think they miss everything he brings to the table.

Regardless, I’m not even sure ROR solves all of the Flames woes. If the Flames trade Tkachuk, there’s another gigantic hole on RW. This team doesn’t have enough natural RWs and that’s been a glaring problem for Treliving’s entire tenure. Brouwer and Neal obviously didn’t work, Lindholm did but the team needed more depth at center and blah, blah, blah, everyone knows the rest.


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[Bingo]

I don't get why we haven't seen something else tried with the defense pairings.

Understand why you leave Tanev and Hanifin together, but when two coaches pretty much left that other pairing to suffer you just shake your head.

Ward had him with Valimaki for three or four games, and it really worked.

I'd love to see if it's Giordano losing a step that's tanking the duo, or Andersson.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Well I guess we should just fire ownership right? Like send Murray Edwards and co their pink slip and let Brad Treliving go on forever. I don’t know what ownership says, I don’t think any of us can know for certain. Everyone though ownership was too cheap to hire an “elite coach” and they proved a lot of people wrong. So maybe picking on ownership is not fair. They’re not the ones trying to execute the game plan either, that’s 100% Brad. We’re pretty fortunate in that we have an ownership group that can spend to the cap and do not meddle. So again, comes down to Treliving. He’s had a very ideal situation and let’s call a spade a spade here. He severely underperformed just like his players did.

I can see very clearly that you’re a Brad Treliving fan, so I’d be curious to know where you draw the line. At what point would you say enough is enough Brad, you’ve had your chance?

Also, that #2 pick in Laine or PLD is not what makes the Jets good. Heck, they were kicking our butts without Laine or PLD in the line up. The Jets are good because their core is lead by an elite #1 center in Mark Scheifele and they have built through patience by drafting great core players in every position. They have depth everywhere on the ice and if they still had Byfuglien patrolling the blue line, they probably would’ve been perennial Stanley Cup contenders last season and this season.


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Nailed it

2016 notwithstanding as we made out pretty good with Tkachuk, 2011-14 drafts tell a tale of 2 small market Canadian franchises

2011 - jets get schiefele at 7, we get Baertschi at 13
2012 - jets draft Trouba at 9, we get Janko 21 and a 2nd round pick of sfa for trading down
2013 - we get mony at 6, jets get morrisey at 13
2014 - we get bennett at 4, jets get ehlers at 8

Over this 4 year period, jets drafted a 1c, 2 top 4 d and top 6 f. We did not. Hope the jets scouts got a good bonus for their work.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

If the Flames come away with only a couple of deals for pending UFAs that add some mid-late picks, this is still "not being buyers." I mean, what do you expect is likely to happen?

I remain convinced that the types of deals fans want are simply not going to be there at the TD, and there is nothing any GM will be able to do about it. This is why I have always been pretty firmly convinced that the best time to get a good read on Treliving and the team looking forward will be over the course of the off-season.

Well I think we just see it differently as of today. I believe you’re saying that if the team bleeds picks you will have lost confidence. Hopefully that doesn’t happen, I’d call it very low probability.

I’m saying I need more than “not bleeding picks” to have my confidence in them return. I hope Ryan and Rittich are dealt for picks. I’ll reserve judgment on the deals until I see them but even that’s not likely enough at this point for me to be back riding the Wizard train.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I don't get why we haven't seen something else tried with the defense pairings.

Understand why you leave Tanev and Hanifin together, but when two coaches pretty much left that other pairing to suffer you just shake your head.

Ward had him with Valimaki for three or four games, and it really worked.

I'd love to see if it's Giordano losing a step that's tanking the duo, or Andersson.

As GioforPM pointed out, Gio is looking better. Rasmus still isn’t so I agree with this idea.

We miss Brodie’s wheels.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Well I guess we should just fire ownership right? Like send Murray Edwards and co their pink slip and let Brad Treliving go on forever. I don’t know what ownership says, I don’t think any of us can know for certain. Everyone though ownership was too cheap to hire an “elite coach” and they proved a lot of people wrong. So maybe picking on ownership is not fair. They’re not the ones trying to execute the game plan either, that’s 100% Brad. We’re pretty fortunate in that we have an ownership group that can spend to the cap and do not meddle. So again, comes down to Treliving. He’s had a very ideal situation and let’s call a spade a spade here. He severely underperformed just like his players did.

I can see very clearly that you’re a Brad Treliving fan, so I’d be curious to know where you draw the line. At what point would you say enough is enough Brad, you’ve had your chance?

Also, that #2 pick in Laine or PLD is not what makes the Jets good. Heck, they were kicking our butts without Laine or PLD in the line up. The Jets are good because their core is lead by an elite #1 center in Mark Scheifele and they have built through patience by drafting great core players in every position. They have depth everywhere on the ice and if they still had Byfuglien patrolling the blue line, they probably would’ve been perennial Stanley Cup contenders last season and this season.


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Good post. I’m not really a fan of scapegoating ownership without a little more evidence to support it.

And for all the moaning of our bad luck, losing Byfuglien for nothing was a big blow for them. Point is it happens to all teams and i’m not convinced Flames have more than their share.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

The Marskstrom move can most definitely be questioned as it was not a slam dunk good move. Not saying it was a mistake but I think it can be debated.

Just like some of his moves that failed can certainly be defended.

Agreed. It's not so much about the move itself in a vacuum, it's that it was another window shortening move. Probably the same can be said about Tanev. I wonder how much being in a 7 team division with 2 likely bad teams (VAN, OTT) enticed them into one my try?

The right move would've been to weaponize cap space and roll the dice on a 2 year re-tool, most of which will be in empty arenas.

Originally Posted by Bingo

I don't get why we haven't seen something else tried with the defense pairings.

Understand why you leave Tanev and Hanifin together, but when two coaches pretty much left that other pairing to suffer you just shake your head.

Ward had him with Valimaki for three or four games, and it really worked.

I'd love to see if it's Giordano losing a step that's tanking the duo, or Andersson.

Hanifin-Andersson (hope to start your decade of Keith+Seabrook)
Valimaki-Tanev
Gio-Kylington

seems like the best option for development.