Adam Fox & the NCAA "Loophole?"

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

The NHLPA isn't just going to allow the NHL to change rules to give players less freedoms and choices.

At least not without the NHL giving the players concessions in other areas of the CBA the players want to change in their favor.

Would this actually be a PA issue? College hockey players aren't part of the union and they don't pay dues. Wouldn't it make more sense for the PA to want these kids out of school sooner to join the union instead of missing out on 4 years of union membership?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by kermitology

This is not a loophole in my mind. They're subject to the same rules as CHL and European drafted players. You take a chance on any player, they don't owe teams anything - and forcing players to sign with the team that drafted them is a bad idea.

If anything, the NCAA needs to change their rules to allow players to make money while still in the NCAA system. Similar to CHL - the contract slides if they stay in college, but they can collect a signing bonus. It's ridiculous that the NCAA does that to their players given how much money they make off of college sports.

I agree with your second point. Having punitive measures to dissuade them from financial gain is dumb. The only issue I see is that the schools invest in the players by giving them scholarships, so in a way, the school is paying them. It's more value than the stipend major junior players get. In the work force, most companies wouldn't continue to employ you if you were also getting paid by a competitor.

[browntrout]

Originally Posted by timun

Hypothetically a Canadian kid playing major-junior could be drafted at 18, decline signing a contract and re-enter the draft a couple years later, decline to sign a contract over another couple years, and would be in the exact same position: a UFA free to sign with anyone. It works essentially the exact same for NCAA players except that the NHL team that drafts them at 18 gets to keep their rights for four years instead of two.

If that is the case the NHL should implement a 1st round pick pick or more depending on how high the pick was. This is going to become a problem for Canadian teams drafting NCAA players. Let's imagine for a second Calgary wins the lottery, and selects Owen Power, and he decides to play NCAA until free agency, can you imagine the backlash. The NHL needs to address this. Canadian teams have so much trouble attracting free agents, now we can't even sign entry level players as well, ridiculous. Adam fox should of never been allowed to exploit this rule. If you want to play in the NHL pay your dues to the team that owns your rights, I am sure New York does not mind, but you know what as a Canadian who has not seen a Stanley Cup in this country for years, it's loop holes that favour American teams that need to be eradicated, Canadian teams have enough challenges already

[Coach]

I'm personally happy with Lindholm and Hanifin. It's really the Canes that got burnt.

[browntrout]

Originally Posted by kermitology

This is not a loophole in my mind. They're subject to the same rules as CHL and European drafted players. You take a chance on any player, they don't owe teams anything - and forcing players to sign with the team that drafted them is a bad idea.

If anything, the NCAA needs to change their rules to allow players to make money while still in the NCAA system. Similar to CHL - the contract slides if they stay in college, but they can collect a signing bonus. It's ridiculous that the NCAA does that to their players given how much money they make off of college sports.

How is that a bad idea? Sure at the end of the day no one can force them to sign with the team that drafted them, but there should be significant compensation to the team if the player decides not to sign with the team. Canadian teams need to be protected from this.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by browntrout

How is that a bad idea? Sure at the end of the day no one can force them to sign with the team that drafted them, but there should be significant compensation to the team if the player decides not to sign with the team. Canadian teams need to be protected from this.

A good chunk of NCAA rosters are Canadians though.

Should American clubs be given the same protection if a local Calgary kid uses the same route to get to the Flames?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by browntrout

If that is the case the NHL should implement a 1st round pick pick or more depending on how high the pick was. This is going to become a problem for Canadian teams drafting NCAA players. Let's imagine for a second Calgary wins the lottery, and selects Owen Power, and he decides to play NCAA until free agency, can you imagine the backlash. The NHL needs to address this. Canadian teams have so much trouble attracting free agents, now we can't even sign entry level players as well, ridiculous. Adam fox should of never been allowed to exploit this rule. If you want to play in the NHL pay your dues to the team that owns your rights, I am sure New York does not mind, but you know what as a Canadian who has not seen a Stanley Cup in this country for years, it's loop holes that favour American teams that need to be eradicated, Canadian teams have enough challenges already

Yeah, no.

I just don't think this is going to be an issue at the top of the Draft.

In the last ten years, Brady Tkachuk, Quinn Hughes, Ryan Poehling, Kyle Connor, Colin White, Brock Boeser, Jack Roslovic, Michael McCarron, Jacob Trouba and Tyler Biggs have all been drafted by Canadian teams out of either the USHL or NCAA in the first round. Not a single one of these players have played out their full four years of college eligibility, and every one was signed by his drafting team.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Yeah, no.

I just don't think this is going to be an issue at the top of the Draft.

In the last ten years, Brady Tkachuk, Quinn Hughes, Ryan Poehling, Kyle Connor, Colin White, Brock Boeser, Jack Roslovic, Michael McCarron, Jacob Trouba and Tyler Biggs have all been drafted by Canadian teams out of either the USHL or NCAA in the first round. Not a single one of these players have played out their full four years of college eligibility, and every one was signed by his drafting team.

True, it's more an issue with late bloomer (most players selected in the 2nd round or later).

Based on what some people are saying about the 2021 draft though, I am not sure that some of those 1st rounders won't be late bloomers as well. Seems like a waek draft overall.

[oldschoolcalgary]

its not a loophole.

the CBA explicitly says that unsigned college players are UFAs after 4 years...same with European leagues with a transfer agreement with the NHL.

I believe the KHL is the only league that player's rights can be held indefinitely.

It's a pretty rare occurrence for an elite talent like Fox not to be signed...typically teams entice college guys by basically giving them 'one year free' on a late signing, like Gaudreau, whom I believe got paid his first year, even though he only played a few games with Calgary...

That's a loophole.

What Fox did, or guys like Lombardi, Stoll and Craig Andersson did was essentially the same...didn't sign in two years and went back into the draft. Also not a loophole

[Coach]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

its not a loophole.

the CBA explicitly says that unsigned college players are UFAs after 4 years...same with European leagues with a transfer agreement with the NHL.

I believe the KHL is the only league that player's rights can be held indefinitely.

It's a pretty rare occurrence for an elite talent like Fox not to be signed...typically teams entice college guys by basically giving them 'one year free' on a late signing, like Gaudreau, whom I believe got paid his first year, even though he only played a few games with Calgary...

That's a loophole.

What Fox did, or guys like Lombardi, Stoll and Craig Andersson did was essentially the same...didn't sign in two years and went back into the draft. Also not a loophole

What I think may start to happen is more American and Canadian players going the Europe route like Matthews, making some coin and living in Europe for a couple years.

That's what I'd do if time machines were a thing.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Has a Jr player ever done it?



Interesting. I'm not sure if those leagues have max contracts, but a quick google indicates you'd be unlikely to exceed $500k USD (except maybe KHL)...

Jarrett Stoll and Matthew Lombari

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Jarrett Stoll and Matthew Lombari

correct, they went back into the draft, but they did sign their second time around... but they could have elected not to sign with Edmonton and Calgary respectively for two years and they would have been UFAs as well.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Has a Jr player ever done it?

Eric Lindros. Obviously, he had enough value that Quebec was able to trade him before he could re-enter the draft, but it's not really any different.

If a player is good enough, the drafting team should be able to trade him to a team he's willing to sign with rather than losing him for nothing. The player benefits from the arrangement because he doesn't risk getting drafted by another team he has no interest in. It's basically what happened with Erixon.



It's actually surprising that more junior players don't refuse to sign with the team that drafted them to force a trade since it's only a 2 year wait and a relatively small number of players are actually good enough to play in the NHL within those first 2 years. Of course, some players do get traded within the first 2 years of their draft, so it's possible that some of them did refuse to sign so the team quietly moved them and we just didn't hear about it.

[FlamesAddiction]

I don't think anyone is arguing that major junior players can't refuse to sign and become free agents. The argument is that the parameters of the 2 systems are different enough that the situation presents itself more in one system than the other. I think that's a straight up fact. If it's not, certainly the quality of players that take advantage of the system is different.

The argument is that if the results are different, should the rules be different? Unless this is the intended result, then my opinion is that yeah, the rules should be different. If it is the intended result, then that is a completely different issue (probably a worse one).

[btimbit]

The reason you can't really compare junior player to college players in this regard is there's less incentive to stay in juniors. Plus you can sign and stay, you don't have to choose one or the other like college (not that it would be a hrd choice)

All a guy like Fox has to do is stay in Harvard. Party, play a very light hockey schedule, finish his schooling, be a campus hero. Most college players love playing in college and would definitely sign if it meant they could still finish college. But the joke that is the NCAA prevents that. So to stay means you can't sign. Then the added benefit of choosing where to go after? I'm shocked more players don't do it.

Compare that to a guy that plays for the Blades, plays a hard schedule with brutal, long bus rides. Terrible weather, living with strangers. Oh but you earn $69.75 a week!

[oldschoolcalgary]

I think its a bit of a mischaracterization to say that staying in college is the easy choice as opposed to signing early.

the fact of the matter is that Fox is one of the few guys that have done this and go on to become stars...most of the other college UFAs are guys that were undrafted and blossomed in college.

College players do give something up - 4 years of earnings and jumping to your second contract when you are 22...

For top end guys like Fox, he probably walked away from 2-4 million dollars and shortened his NHL earning years by 3... there's not too many guys that are willing to sit on a lottery ticket like that, knowing all it takes is a freak injury to take that all away.

[btimbit]

My point was it's not at all comparable to junior players. You can't say junior players have the same option. It's a much more attractive option for a college player to say 'I'll stay here, have a blast, finish school, then be a UFA' than it is for a junior player to say 'Nah, I wanna stay in Saskatoon and freeze my ass off with no other benefits so I can be a UFA'

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

I think its a bit of a mischaracterization to say that staying in college is the easy choice as opposed to signing early.

the fact of the matter is that Fox is one of the few guys that have done this and go on to become stars...most of the other college UFAs are guys that were undrafted and blossomed in college.

College players do give something up - 4 years of earnings and jumping to your second contract when you are 22...

For top end guys like Fox, he probably walked away from 2-4 million dollars and shortened his NHL earning years by 3... there's not too many guys that are willing to sit on a lottery ticket like that, knowing all it takes is a freak injury to take that all away.

I don't think he was NHL, or even AHL, ready for at least the first couple of years after he was drafted, so it's unlikely he actually lost those years. Signing him would have been a detriment to the player (immediate money, but potential development issues). That is one of the main factors here. If a player is a few years off, as most 3rd rounders are, by the time they reach the level where they are ready, they don't have to wait long to become a free agent. Maybe he lost a year.

A player that signs an ELC at 22 only has to sign a 2-year deal, so that also potentially makes up for it.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

its not a loophole.

the CBA explicitly says that unsigned college players are UFAs after 4 years...same with European leagues with a transfer agreement with the NHL.

I believe the KHL is the only league that player's rights can be held indefinitely.

It's a pretty rare occurrence for an elite talent like Fox not to be signed...typically teams entice college guys by basically giving them 'one year free' on a late signing, like Gaudreau, whom I believe got paid his first year, even though he only played a few games with Calgary...

That's a loophole.

What Fox did, or guys like Lombardi, Stoll and Craig Andersson did was essentially the same...didn't sign in two years and went back into the draft. Also not a loophole

It is a tool a player can use in order to dictate where he can play at a younger age than any other player. Full UFA status at 22 and when a player is playing in the NCAA it is not that difficult to stick with school because the player is obviously on a full ride scholarship and ends their 4 years with a degree. With Fox he was at Harvard so not that difficult to stick around.

Going back into the draft and picking any team you want is definitely not essentially the same

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I don't think he was NHL, or even AHL, ready for at least the first couple of years after he was drafted, so it's unlikely he actually lost those years. Signing him would have been a detriment to the player (immediate money, but potential development issues). That is one of the main factors here. If a player is a few years off, as most 3rd rounders are, by the time they reach the level where they are ready, they don't have to wait long to become a free agent. Maybe he lost a year.

A player that signs an ELC at 22 only has to sign a 2-year deal, so that also potentially makes up for it.

I'd to go back and look, but I think the concern with Fox started happening after his first year in college when he blew up...he left Harvard with one year of eligibility remaining...which was the same as Gaudreau.

All I am saying is it sucks that this happened to Calgary, but Fox is the outlier... I'd be hard pressed to find someone else that did this and became a star in the NHL.

If there are concerns with it, the solution is easy - do not draft someone that is intending to go to a US college program. The other solution is getting the NHLPA to agree to indefinite draft rights, which is highly unlikely.