Brad Treliving needs to go - Page 90 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Sylvanfan · 03-31-2021, 07:26 PM

Maybe Gaudreau should stop playing with a pook, and try a puck like everyone else.

Jiri Hrdina · 03-31-2021, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Maybe Gaudreau should stop playing with a pook, and try a puck like everyone else.

The embarrassing thing is that is what I call my daughter

Sylvanfan · 03-31-2021, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacks

The fans might recognize that it would take several years of growing assets to emerge as a contender but team management certainly didn't think that way. I don't care if people want to blame Treliving or the owners but the team should be good by now, not getting worse.

Right now they are not playing well, but don't kid yourself the team Treliving would turn over to a successor today is substantially better than what he took over. His best assets over 26 were Glencross, Kris Russell, and Jiri Hudler. Even if he traded Gaudreau and Monshan for 4th round picks...it would still be much better than what he inherited.

Vinny01 · 03-31-2021, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think Johnny Gaudreau can and will be a dangerous complimentary player on a team that has a primary play driver he can team up with.

I think scouts will see that too.

But I don't see him returning to be the play driving force on a top line any more, I think the league has figured him out when the focus is on him almost entirely.

If he was playing with a legit star in their own right the split focus would make him more dangerous.

I was listening to Tim without Sid on the Rintoul and Oiler Fan show today and he was talking about the Flames and Johnny specifically. Stated you won’t win with Johnny as your best player but if he is your third or fourth best forward you have an elite team.

GioforPM · 03-31-2021, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacks

It was supposed to be the early stages of a full rebuild, that's not a terrible start.

The fans might recognize that it would take several years of growing assets to emerge as a contender but team management certainly didn't think that way. I don't care if people want to blame Treliving or the owners but the team should be good by now, not getting worse.

He could have had:

Gaudreau
Monahan
JT Miller
Nic Ehlers or maybe Dylan Larkin
Vasilevsky/Teravainen/Hertl/Wilson

Sigh

mrdonkey · 03-31-2021, 07:43 PM

Johnny’s career is taking on an awfully similar trajectory to Phil Kessel’s. I remember a lot of these same things being said when he was still with the Leafs, and it turns out they were right.

GioforPM · 03-31-2021, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Johnny’s career is taking on an awfully similar trajectory to Phil Kessel’s. I remember a lot of these same things being said when he was still with the Leafs, and it turns out they were right.

My Leaf fan buddy agrees with that (but thinks Kessel was better, which is hard to argue).

powderjunkie · 03-31-2021, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bingo

Right but the playoff series was in April of 2019. The next season where there would be reasonable doubt for almost anyone was September 2019, and then the season was wiped out by March of 2020.

Since then it's not all that easy moving anyone even if you did want to move on.

There really isn't a window here, is there?

Now if you wanted them traded the summer of 2019 then sure, you'd be ahead of the curve, but that was the only window to move a key piece that we've seen really.

The TDL cam before the COVID madness. The Flames were a bubble team; IIRC ~67% chance of making playoffs. With Gio and Hamonic hurt.

I know I made several arguments:

- trying to trade JG that off-season could be tough with Hall available as a UFA, and with GMs soberly considering the expansion draft

- trading Gaudreau (and/or Brodie for that matter) would not necessarily preclude the team from making the playoffs and going on a run. If you're worried about the team folding because of the 'message' those trades sends, then the group is probably too fragile to contend, anyways.

It seems they wanted to take one last try to be extra super-duper certain that 13 [and 23] couldn't get it done in the spring, and COVID certainly threw a wrench into all of that. It was a limited window, but the opportunity for decisive action was there.

Aarongavey · 03-31-2021, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Plenty of good prospects? Who? Look at that list.
The previous regime extracted nothing of value out of the previous core (Iginla, Kipper, Regehr, Langkow, etc). If handled properly he would have some additional asset capital to work with.

Well the assets he inherited were

1) a 21 year old winger who averaged 27 goals and 52 assists for 79 points on an 82 game basis over the first 6 years of Brad's regime
2) a 20 year old center who averaged 31 goals and 38 assists for 69 points on an 82 game basis over the first 6 years of Brad's regime
3) a 24 year old dman who averaged 7 goals and 30 assists for 37 points on an 82 game basis over the first 6 years of Brad's regime.

And he inherited assets that he turned into the following picks and prospects

Four 2nd round picks
One 3rd round pick
One 4th round pick
One 6th round pick
A 22 year old prospect who was a former first round pick
A 19 year old prospect who was a former 2nd round pick

I do not think we have any current players or prospects in our system who will match collectively just numbers Gaudreau, Monahan and Brodie put up in their first 6 years under Brad. I think you could make a pretty strong case that this team is in a poorer position in terms of young talent or players who could be traded for young talent compared with what Brad inherited.

Rasmus is 24 but he has never had a single season where he averaged over an 82 game season the pace that Brodie averaged over 6 seasons. You have a 24 year old Hanifin who you can say the exact same thing about. And you have a 22 year old Valimaki who is not as good as Brodie was at the same age.

Up front you have Tkachuk, Dube, Pelletier and Zary. Highly doubtful any combination of any of our top 2 forward prospects or young players will be as productive as Monahan or Gaudreau. A new GM would have to move some serious pieces to accumulate the draft picks the previous regime's players were able to accumulate and have 3 young players who turn out to be as good as Brodie, Gaudreau and Monahan.

GioforPM · 03-31-2021, 07:54 PM

Calgary got Morgan Klimchuk, Emile Poirier, Ben Hanowski, Agostino, Cundari and Berra for Iginla and Jaybo. That’s ugly.

Treliving did better off of trading Sven.

Aarongavey · 03-31-2021, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Calgary got Morgan Klimchuk, Emile Poirier, Ben Hanowski, Agostino, Cundari and Berra for Iginla and Jaybo. That’s ugly.

We got Hamonic for a lottery pick and two second rounders. That might be worse.

Textcritic · 03-31-2021, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

The TDL cam before the COVID madness. The Flames were a bubble team; IIRC ~67% chance of making playoffs. With Gio and Hamonic hurt.

I know I made several arguments:

- trying to trade JG that off-season could be tough with Hall available as a UFA, and with GMs soberly considering the expansion draft

- trading Gaudreau (and/or Brodie for that matter) would not necessarily preclude the team from making the playoffs and going on a run. If you're worried about the team folding because of the 'message' those trades sends, then the group is probably too fragile to contend, anyways.

It seems they wanted to take one last try to be extra super-duper certain that 13 [and 23] couldn't get it done in the spring, and COVID certainly threw a wrench into all of that. It was a limited window, but the opportunity for decisive action was there.

The problem with this thinking is that even if they dr idea to move on from Monahan and/or Gaudreau at the 2020 TD the only deals they would have been entertaining would have been for packages of picks and prospects. It is usually far too difficult to make hockey trades at this time of tbe year, and there is no way the Flames were making a deal for these ayers that did not include impact players in the same age-window coming back.

I just don't believe a TD move to reshape the forward core would ever have realistically been possible.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Jacks · 03-31-2021, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Right now they are not playing well, but don't kid yourself the team Treliving would turn over to a successor today is substantially better than what he took over. His best assets over 26 were Glencross, Kris Russell, and Jiri Hudler. Even if he traded Gaudreau and Monshan for 4th round picks...it would still be much better than what he inherited.

Those guys were traded for 3 x 2nd, 1 x 3rd, 1 x 4th and 2 prospects so they obviously had value.

It's a pretty low bar to say that the team is better now, it should be a hell of a lot better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GioforPM

He could have had:

Gaudreau
Monahan
JT Miller
Nic Ehlers or maybe Dylan Larkin
Vasilevsky/Teravainen/Hertl/Wilson

Sigh

In hindsight could have had Barzal too.

DeluxeMoustache · 03-31-2021, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Calgary got Morgan Klimchuk, Emile Poirier, Ben Hanowski, Agostino, Cundari and Berra for Iginla and Jaybo. That’s ugly.

True. Brutal. But that doesn’t matter. All of that happened before he joined.

Brad Treliving started with what he started with.

Some good pieces, basically a few pieces of what is still the core.

Clean slate with no bad contracts and tons of cap space. No country club, a coach who had the players achieving above expectations individually and collectively.

All that matters is what Brad did with what he had to work with.

Hamonic moved was brutal

It’s worse now than it was then, certainly in terms of performance overall, performance relative to expectations, and I can’t believe anyone would argue otherwise

GioforPM · 03-31-2021, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

True. Brutal. But that doesn’t matter. All of that happened before he joined.

Brad Treliving started with what he started with.

Some good pieces, basically a few pieces of what is still the core.

Clean slate with no bad contracts and tons of cap space. No country club, a coach who had the players achieving above expectations individually and collectively.

All that matters is what Brad did with what he had to work with.

It’s worse now than it was then, certainly in terms of performance overall, performance relative to expectations, and I can’t believe anyone would argue otherwise

The argument literally was about what he started with.

GioforPM · 03-31-2021, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacks

Those guys were traded for 3 x 2nd, 1 x 3rd, 1 x 4th and 2 prospects so they obviously had value.

It's a pretty low bar to say that the team is better now, it should be a hell of a lot better.

In hindsight could have had Barzal too.

It would have been tough for Treliving to have inherited Barzal, seeing as how he wasn’t draft eligible.

Strange Brew · 03-31-2021, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Right now they are not playing well, but don't kid yourself the team Treliving would turn over to a successor today is substantially better than what he took over. His best assets over 26 were Glencross, Kris Russell, and Jiri Hudler. Even if he traded Gaudreau and Monshan for 4th round picks...it would still be much better than what he inherited.

What a horribly low bar. Anyone could have inherited that team with the draft picks and cap space and improved it.

I guess this is what we have come to. Arguing that Treliving didn’t take a bad team with promising young players and make it worse.

DeluxeMoustache · 03-31-2021, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The argument literally was about what he started with.

Okay, when you are inventorying your assets, do you count all of the rolls of toilet paper and include them?

Tre started with good assets, a clean slate, good culture and cap space

Jacks · 03-31-2021, 08:06 PM

Quote:

It would have been tough for Treliving to have inherited Barzal, seeing as how he wasn’t draft eligible.

Would have been tough inheriting Ehlers or Larkin either since they hadn't been drafted. I thought you were talking about missed picks.

GioforPM · 03-31-2021, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Okay, when you are inventorying your assets, do you count all of the rolls of toilet paper and include them?

Tre started with good assets, a clean slate, good culture and cap space

Let’s not get crazy - he started with two very good young assets, a couple middling young players, a good couple D and cap space. And a bunch of old players that he turned into some picks. And a whole bunch of crappy young assets.

unless you are counting Colborne, Sven, Janko, Bennett, Granlund, Klimchuk, Poirier or Tyler Witherspoon, under “good assets”