Brad Treliving needs to go

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Rebuilds aren't 5-7 years. Look at what the Leafs did.

Just because the Oilers messed up for so long doesn't mean that is the default timeline to success. I'm also not saying it guarantees success.

But If you look at the top teams in the league and look at how many have top 5 draft picks, you'll start to see a pattern.

Franchise players are hard to acquire unless it's through the draft.

While I generally agree with your post, it should be noted that not just top teams, but every team has top 5 picks. Given that average career of a top 5 pick is roughly 15 years, there are roughly 75 top 5 picks in the league. You would be hard pressed to find a team without one. Same, to lesser extent, is true about top 3 picks.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Pointman

While I generally agree with your post, it should be noted that not just top teams, but every team has top 5 picks. Given that average career of a top 5 pick is roughly 15 years, there are roughly 75 top 5 picks in the league. You would be hard pressed to find a team without one. Same, to lesser extent, is true about top 3 picks.

Then look at how the top players on the top teams were acquired. I didn't mean for my message to get lost in semantics.

[genetic_phreek]

I said it last year that we should have tried to get Cozens for Monahan. Now Monahan wouldn't even be enough to get Reinhart. Tre sucks

[Sylvanfan]

Top 5 pick for me can be somewhat over rated. You really need one of those high picks to be a top 1 or 2. If the Lightning are picking 5th in 08 & 09 they get Luke and Brayden Schenn...not even close to having Hedman and Stamkos . Occasionally you get a guy at 4 or 5 who becomes one of the best guys in the draft. But more often than not, it's the guys taken 1 and 2 that are the real impact players. Chicago, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Washington these are all teams who had at least 1 guy who was a number 1 pick plus another top 4 pick playing a big role helping that player out. Really Los Angeles and St.Louis are the two teams in the last 9 years who won the Cup without having a top 2 pick plus another top 5 pick leading the charge. St.Louis had Pietrangelo and Brayden Schenn who were the 4 and 5 picks in 08 and 09. The Kings had a #2 pick in Doughty, but he was supported by a couple guys picked at 11 in Kopitar and Carter.

It does seem though that without that real top end talent, it's a lot tougher to win a Stanley Cup now.

[genetic_phreek]

Tre went from a wizard to a lizard.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Top 5 pick for me can be somewhat over rated. You really need one of those high picks to be a top 1 or 2. If the Lightning are picking 5th in 08 & 09 they get Luke and Brayden Schenn...not even close to having Hedman and Stamkos . Occasionally you get a guy at 4 or 5 who becomes one of the best guys in the draft. But more often than not, it's the guys taken 1 and 2 that are the real impact players. Chicago, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Washington these are all teams who had at least 1 guy who was a number 1 pick plus another top 4 pick playing a big role helping that player out. Really Los Angeles and St.Louis are the two teams in the last 9 years who won the Cup without having a top 2 pick plus another top 5 pick leading the charge. St.Louis had Pietrangelo and Brayden Schenn who were the 4 and 5 picks in 08 and 09. The Kings had a #2 pick in Doughty, but he was supported by a couple guys picked at 11 in Kopitar and Carter.

It does seem though that without that real top end talent, it's a lot tougher to win a Stanley Cup now.

It’s not just “a lot tougher” it’s pretty much impossible.

But yeah, the lottery is there - so you have to aim for being bottom-5, and hope you get lucky - both in the lottery results, and in that you’re hoping it’s a strong draft year.

Drafting at the top of the draft is where you get your foundational pieces, and yeah - generally you want/need to be in that top-3 to get what you need.

I see absolutely no downside in selling and then tanking the remaining of this season, and then beginning with a fresh start in 2021/2022. This season is already lost.

View Sutter as foundational block #1. Build from there.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

The Great Flames Path of Succession.

Produce extremely mediocre results at various levels within the NHL, Flames braintrust swiftly identifies mediocrity and scoops up said talent, they maybe stick around within the Flames organization for a few years, continue to produce very mediocre results, then get awarded a position of tremendous importance with the Flames, continue to produce extremely mediocre results, get fired and never be given that level of responsibility in the NHL ever again! Next man up!

There is also another surefire path to the top of the Flames food chain which is what I call "The Feaster Path"**. That is where this person actually did in fact achieve the pinnacle of the job, a Stanley Cup, but had been out of work for a handful of years in the NHL, deemed irrelevant by the greater NHL community, only to find themselves plucked from obscurity and awarded a plum position of great importance with your very own Calgary Flames. The end result is still the same as before, get fired, and never be given that level of responsibility in the NHL ever again.

See:

Gulutzan, Glen
Peters, Bill
Hay, Don
Playfair, Jim
Gilbert, Greg
Macneil, Al
Ward, Geoff
Sutter, Brent
Keenan, Mike **
Feaster, Jay **
Hartley, Bob **
Button, Craig

Soon to be added to list:

Treliving, Brad
Maloney, Don

Currently worried that Darryl Sutter might be on a Feaster Path as it has all the hallmarks. Hoping i'm wrong.

Excellent post. You can add Burke to Feaster path.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Dylan Larkin is so many tiers above any center in the Flames organization it's not even funny.

I wouldn't trade Lindholm for him

certainly not "many tiers" above Lindholm who has better stats both offensively and defensively

[Erick Estrada]

As I said in another thread there's not a single untouchable player in this organization from prospects to the NHL roster. That's a really, really bad look for the GM of 7 seasons that he's built an organization talent base that doesn't have a single cornerstone piece.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Rebuilds aren't 5-7 years. Look at what the Leafs did.

Just because the Oilers messed up for so long doesn't mean that is the default timeline to success. I'm also not saying it guarantees success.

But If you look at the top teams in the league and look at how many have top 5 draft picks, you'll start to see a pattern.

Franchise players are hard to acquire unless it's through the draft.

What do you mean look what the Leafs did? They were in purgatory for a decade before they got Matthews. Outside of one fluke playoff appearance in the lockout shortened season they were a decade without playoffs and had top 10 picks from 09, 12, 14, 15 )not to mention trading them away in 10, 11).

And what have they accomplished? Less than Treliving’s Flames

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

It’s not just “a lot tougher” it’s pretty much impossible.

But yeah, the lottery is there - so you have to aim for being bottom-5, and hope you get lucky - both in the lottery results, and in that you’re hoping it’s a strong draft year.

Drafting at the top of the draft is where you get your foundational pieces, and yeah - generally you want/need to be in that top-3 to get what you need.

I see absolutely no downside in selling and then tanking the remaining of this season, and then beginning with a fresh start in 2021/2022. This season is already lost.

View Sutter as foundational block #1. Build from there.

Sutter has said he has zero interest in coaching a team that is not trying to win a Stanley Cup. He wants no part of a rebuild at 62 he literally came out of retirement to take this job.

You can desperately want this team to enter a rebuild to trade all of our assets for futures and tank for 3-4 years and build it back up but that will not happen with Darryl here. I can’t see him walking away after this season but if this team is truly as bad as many people think he will likely be gone at some point next year and the build can start.


Murray Edwards didn’t want to rebuild when his best players were 30-35. I have a hard time seeing him swallow the team going back down that path when their key forwards are 23-27 and they just signed a big money goalie

[gt4flames]

Tre has done his best. He has made some judgement calls that in premise are winners...
...on the stat sheet...its a wash.

I realize that we wouldnt have Lindholm without fox being a throw in on the trade, but this team would be very different had Bennett and Fox both panned out as planned. Fox right now is a top 10 D man for the Rangers. He has 11 points in 4 games last week.

If Bennett is 75% of what Draisatlis, and Fox Signs with the flames this team is very different...
...But they aren't and didn't...Here we are 5 coaches later and the reality is this team sucks.

Hall after being drafted #1 had 5 coaches in his 7 season in Edmonton.

...All of that is on the GM

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

The Great Flames Path of Succession.

There is also another surefire path to the top of the Flames food chain which is what I call "The Feaster Path"**. That is where this person actually did in fact achieve the pinnacle of the job, a Stanley Cup, but had been out of work for a handful of years in the NHL, deemed irrelevant by the greater NHL community, only to find themselves plucked from obscurity and awarded a plum position of great importance with your very own Calgary Flames. The end result is still the same as before, get fired, and never be given that level of responsibility in the NHL ever again.

Dean Lombardi has been out of work for a handful of years and deemed irrelevant by the NHL community. He’s a perfect fit. There are even fans clamouring for him to be hired. It would be the most Flames thing ever.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Dean Lombardi has been out of work for a handful of years and deemed irrelevant by the NHL community. He’s a perfect fit. There are even fans clamouring for him to be hired. It would be the most Flames thing ever.

He won a cup in LA thanks to Darryl but he also created the mess they are still trying to dig themselves out of.

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

He won a cup in LA thanks to Darryl but he also created the mess they are still trying to dig themselves out of.

Umm, I would gladly take Calgary as a mess of a team for a few years if it means the Flames will win 2 cups within a few years.

They have struggled for a few years afterwards (just like Chicago) - but have now started to turn the corner and have some nice prospects. It's the way it goes in the cap world.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Dean Lombardi has been out of work for a handful of years and deemed irrelevant by the NHL community. He’s a perfect fit. There are even fans clamouring for him to be hired. It would be the most Flames thing ever.

He has been working for the Flyers since 2017 and is 63.

If he comes in I think it is to empty the chambers to try and win and not rebuild this thing. Lombardi would be a win now hire

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

What do you mean look what the Leafs did? They were in purgatory for a decade before they got Matthews. Outside of one fluke playoff appearance in the lockout shortened season they were a decade without playoffs and had top 10 picks from 09, 12, 14, 15 )not to mention trading them away in 10, 11).

And what have they accomplished? Less than Treliving’s Flames

What do you mean?

It wasn't until Dubas got there that the Leafs actually started to rebuild. Before him, they were trying to do exactly what the Flames are trying to do now. Re-tool, sneak in as a 7th or 8th seed, and catch momentum.

If the Flames started a rebuild tomorrow, would you consider the last 3 or 4 years as part of the rebuild?

You are just proving my point. The Leafs delayed the inevitable.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

What do you mean?

It wasn't until Dubas got there that the Leafs actually started to rebuild. Before him, they were trying to do exactly what the Flames are trying to do now. Re-tool, sneak in as a 7th or 8th seed, and catch momentum.

If the Flames started a rebuild tomorrow, would you consider the last 3 or 4 years as part of the rebuild?

You are just proving my point. The Leafs delayed the inevitable.

My point is the turn around time is going to be significant. It won’t be a quick turnaround and the point remains this Leafs team has not accomplished a thing. Treliving has a series win and a division win. Leafs haven’t won a series since 04 and missed last year.

I got the impression that you are saying the Leafs had a quick rebuild which is completely false. It is basically saying the Oilers didn’t start rebuilding until they drafted McDavid. They were actually in year 8 of a rebuild when it happened.

While the Leafs embraced the tank to get Matthews and Marner they had several other high picks on their team that were part of their failed rebuild. Maybe that is Tkachuk and Hanifin on the Flames? Retain those guys and trade the older guys and keep them?

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

My point is the turn around time is going to be significant. It won’t be a quick turnaround and the point remains this Leafs team has not accomplished a thing. Treliving has a series win and a division win. Leafs haven’t won a series since 04 and missed last year.

I got the impression that you are saying the Leafs had a quick rebuild which is completely false. It is basically saying the Oilers didn’t start rebuilding until they drafted McDavid. They were actually in year 8 of a rebuild when it happened.

While the Leafs embraced the tank to get Matthews and Marner they had several other high picks on their team that were part of their failed rebuild. Maybe that is Tkachuk and Hanifin on the Flames? Retain those guys and trade the older guys and keep them?

Obviously the turnaround time is significant, but if it takes 5-7 years from the moment you trade your stars for futures, then the rebuild is in rough shape at that point.

But you are putting words in my mouth and arguing things I haven't said regarding the Leafs having a 'quick' rebuild. At the same time, you can't measure the beginning and end of a rebuild based off of years between series wins.

The Leafs took a fundamental change in direction when Dubas took over as GM.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Dean Lombardi has been out of work for a handful of years and deemed irrelevant by the NHL community. He’s a perfect fit. There are even fans clamouring for him to be hired. It would be the most Flames thing ever.

"Deemed irrelevant by the hockey community"? What is that based on?