[PGT] Best team ever 3 Flames 1

[TheChief]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Gaudreau sucks when he is not playing with Monahan.

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No

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CGY12

And thats why with the team nowhere close to being a cup contender or a contender of any sort, while he is coming off a "fantastic" year you actively try to move him. Maybe the Flames did but I highly doubt it. Now we are left with two years of below value Gio with next to no value. Poor asset management, if the Flames were on the cusp it would be different.

I think your expectations are unrealistic. No NHL team in the Flames position coming out of 2019 would have moved Giordano.


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[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Mediocre in 17-18? The year where he had some of the best stats in the league?

In 82 games he had 38 points and was even. Those are $5m/year kind of numbers.

Even last year he’s still a top 30 dman by about any metric.

Top 30 in the league when he's being paid like a top 15 defenseman.

Just because you made up some narrative in your head doesn’t make it true

Same applies to you.

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by TheChief

No

Mr. 3-5-on-5 goals is the offensive lynchpin of the team didn't you know.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by CGY12

And thats why with the team nowhere close to being a cup contender or a contender of any sort, while he is coming off a "fantastic" year you actively try to move him. Maybe the Flames did but I highly doubt it. Now we are left with two years of below value Gio with next to no value. Poor asset management, if the Flames were on the cusp it would be different.

Hindsight is fun.

You don’t trade your captain when he’s coming off a Norris trophy win, when he wants to be in the city, and when you finished 2nd in the league the year before.

Show an example of a team ever moving a player in that scenario at any other point in history.

Hasn’t happened. You can fault Tre for not moving Gaudreau, Monahan, or a guy like Backlund sooner, but trying to say they should have moved Gio after 18-19 is 100% using hindsight to fit a narrative.

[1qqaaz]

Martin St. Louis was traded one year after winning the Art Ross.
I believe he asked to be traded.
He (and a 2nd) fetched Callahan, two 1sts, and a seventh.
NY was pretty much the only team he was willing to go to.

That's the best somewhat recent example I can think of, and it still took a year.
Jagr was traded to Washington right after winning the Art Ross.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

In 82 games he had 38 points and was even. Those are $5m/year kind of numbers.

Top 30 in the league when he's being paid like a top 15 defenseman.

Same applies to you.

Personally I just don’t rely on using points and plus-minus to tell me the value of a d-man.

Gio signed this contract in 16-17 and let’s looks at his results by year.

16-17
Norris Voting: 8th
Points: 39 (24th)
Relative Corsi: 5.53 (5th)
Relative xGF: 6.81 (4th)

17-18
Norris Voting: 16th
Points: 38 (32nd)
Relative Corsi: 6.68 (1st)
Relative xGF: 7.64 (2nd)

18-19
Norris Voting: 1st
Points: 74 (2nd)
Relative Corsi: 5.17 (5th)
Relative xGF: 4.17 (18th)

19-20
Norris Voting: N/A
Messier Trophy: Won
Points: 31 (44th)
Relative Corsi: 4.00 (17th)
Relative xGF: 6.10 (11th)

By advanced metrics he’s been at worst a top 20 dman the entire life of his contract. He’s had his struggles in the playoffs, and hasn’t been as good this year and last but he’s been a top dman every year until this season.

Just because the rest of the team isn’t good enough that doesn’t mean he’s the problem.

[dino7c]

What is the point of all this? Brad doesn't a flux capacitor all that matters is the next move...I think Seattle might take Gio if exposed honestly

Good cap dump and expansion shield should that happen

Lucic retires and Gio claimed would give the Flames some cap space

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

By advanced metrics he’s been at worst a top 20 dman the entire life of his contract.

You listed 4 years of a 6 year contract and concluded by saying "entire life of his contract".

And personally I don't read a whole lot into Corsi. Teams can attempt a lot of shots but it doesn't mean a whole lot unless they actually become scoring chances. The other stat you listed is an offensive stat and we're talking about a defenseman.

Norris voting is wonderful and everything, but there's a fair amount of subjectivity that goes into it.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

You listed 4 years of a 6 year contract and concluded by saying "entire life of his contract".



And personally I don't read a whole lot into Corsi. Teams can attempt a lot of shots but it doesn't mean a whole lot unless they actually become scoring chances. The other stat you listed is an offensive stat and we're talking about a defenseman.

The only statistics you have countered with have been scoring totals and plus/minus—regarded by many (most?) to be the most worthless counting-stat in use.

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[CGY12]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Hindsight is fun.

You don’t trade your captain when he’s coming off a Norris trophy win, when he wants to be in the city, and when you finished 2nd in the league the year before.

Show an example of a team ever moving a player in that scenario at any other point in history.

Hasn’t happened. You can fault Tre for not moving Gaudreau, Monahan, or a guy like Backlund sooner, but trying to say they should have moved Gio after 18-19 is 100% using hindsight to fit a narrative.

You'd think a team that has been mediocre for so long and that was 2 - 12 in there last 14 playoff games, may re-evaluate their approach and try and go against the norm. Hindsight is all we have at this point, the team is bad and the immediate future looks bleak. Management over estimating the roster is a main reason the organization finds themselves in this situation. By the way my narrative around Giordano hasn't changed since we lost to Colorado, just my opinion.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

The only statistics you have countered with have been scoring totals and plus/minus—regarded by many (most?) to be the most worthless counting-stat in use.

The only arguments your camp has been putting forth are the "most people do this" or "most teams don't do that" kind of arguments.

Sometimes the wisest things in life are unpopular things.

+/- by itself can often times be an unreliable stat, but when combined with other considerations such as, how does yours compare to your D partner and others on your team, and what is your GA/60, etc, it actually is a reliable indicator of a defenseman's play.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

You listed 4 years of a 6 year contract and concluded by saying "entire life of his contract".

And personally I don't read a whole lot into Corsi. Teams can attempt a lot of shots but it doesn't mean a whole lot unless they actually become scoring chances. The other stat you listed is an offensive stat and we're talking about a defenseman.

Norris voting is wonderful and everything, but there's a fair amount of subjectivity that goes into it.

Lol you were the one that was using points first.

xGF% is the difference between goals for and goals against and takes into consideration corsi, shot quality and other metrics both for and against to determine the value.

Keep feeding your own narrative using points and plus/minus though.

[dino7c]

Flames have scored 2 goals in three games and this game thread is two days worth of shoulda woulda coulda about a dman (who ironically scored the only goal of the game)

We get it

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Flames have scored 2 goals in three games and this game thread is two days worth of shoulda woulda coulda about a dman (who ironically scored the only goal of the game)

We get it

You are the most annoying self righteous poster I've ever seen in my 13 years on this board. If Dino doesn't like it, nobody should, you don't like the topic or the discussion leave, its not a hard concept to understand.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by CGY12

You are the most annoying self righteous poster I've ever seen in my 13 years on this board. If Dino doesn't like it, nobody should, you don't like the topic or the discussion leave, its not a hard concept to understand.

Game thread from a low scoring game seems like an odd place to argue that a dman should have been traded 3 years ago for 24 hours straight

Just my opinion though, glad you think I am #1 something


I actually agree he should be left unprotected and potentially traded

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Lol you were the one that was using points first.

xGF% is the difference between goals for and goals against and takes into consideration corsi, shot quality and other metrics both for and against to determine the value.

Keep feeding your own narrative using points and plus/minus though.

Points are a strong indicator of what a defenseman brings offensively. If he isn't getting points, he's not bringing much to the offensive side of the game.

Relative xGF% may seem like a wonderful stat, but there are reasons to be skeptical of it that I won't get into now.
http://www.naturalstattrick.com/play...&draftteam=ALL

His relative xGA/60 that year tells a different story... you gotta go quite a ways down the list before you find Gio.
http://www.naturalstattrick.com/play...&draftteam=ALL

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

You listed 4 years of a 6 year contract and concluded by saying "entire life of his contract".

And personally I don't read a whole lot into Corsi. Teams can attempt a lot of shots but it doesn't mean a whole lot unless they actually become scoring chances. The other stat you listed is an offensive stat and we're talking about a defenseman.

Norris voting is wonderful and everything, but there's a fair amount of subjectivity that goes into it.

He also used, in the same sentence, the past tense ‘has been’ , which excludes future years

If somebody asks you about whether you have done or seen something in your entire life, do you answer them with “I don’t know because I haven’t finished living my life”?

You know you are on weak footing when that’s your opening salvo

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

He also used, in the same sentence, the past tense ‘has been’ , which excludes future years

If somebody asks you about whether you have done or seen something in your entire life, do you answer them with “I don’t know because I haven’t finished living my life”?

You know you are on weak footing when that’s your opening salvo

No no... just no, that's a dumb argument. A contract and a human life are not remotely close to the same thing. They are not comparable. Come on, you're just being silly here. A contract has a known length that's pre-determined ahead of time. A human life doesn't. The dude said "entire life of his contract". "Has been" would have to include his play this year because it happened, in other words it's in the past. And based on Gio's play this year and his age, we can reasonably predict how he's going to play out the rest of it. Any reasonable person can make that prediction. It's not rocket science.

"Weak footing"? Oh god. I just can't anymore. Have fun with whatever half-baked attempt you come up with to try and undermine my position. Signing Gio for 6 years when he was already entering his mid 30s was a bad idea, nothing here comes close to changing my mind. Sorry.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ lol

People have given data that disagrees with your feelings. Boo hoo

I’m not interested in arguing whether Gio is going to be full value next year