Blow it up!

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

I get the trepidation about going into a rebuild. Teams like Buffalo, New Jersey, and even Detroit seem to be mired into one that's going on for 5 years now, and those teams are no better in the Standings today than they were last years. Even Anaheim, how long are they going to be down for? Once you go that way, you can get stuck there forever. Even McDavid and Dr. Drai have had a miserable time getting Edmonton to mediocre....

Going into the offseason, the Flames were far better positioned to rebuild as contract wise they were pretty open and did not have too many long term commitments. Even Backlund, Gio and Lucic in a rebuild somewhat help the team get to the salary floor and can provide guidance for some young players coming in. But having added a couple of bigger dollar term contracts in Markstrom and Tanev, that makes it a bit trickier. Plus add in a coach who really is not a good fit for a full rebuild.

They likely will make some sort of move in the offseason, but I think they'll try changing out a bigger piece or two of the team and give that a go before they waive the white flag on a rebuild.

Almost all the Flames best trade assets are in their 20's now and that's a much better place to be compared to teams that have a core of top players in their 30's with limited trade value. Ducks and Kings were screwed because their best players were in their 30's, tied up long term, and declining making them largely untradeable. The Blackhawks are in deep even with the get out of jail free card they got from the Hossa retirement scam. If the Flames keep hanging on to this core they will head in that direction of no return.

[VictoryJuice]

I doubt we rebuild - don’t think sutter wants to coach a rebuilding team. I agree we need to trade some players to shake things up. Johnny could net us a good return, may as well do that. Don’t think I want Tre making those moves tho - time for a new GM.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

I get the trepidation about going into a rebuild. Teams like Buffalo, New Jersey, and even Detroit seem to be mired into one that's going on for 5 years now, and those teams are no better in the Standings today than they were last years. Even Anaheim, how long are they going to be down for? Once you go that way, you can get stuck there forever. Even McDavid and Dr. Drai have had a miserable time getting Edmonton to mediocre....

Going into the offseason, the Flames were far better positioned to rebuild as contract wise they were pretty open and did not have too many long term commitments. Even Backlund, Gio and Lucic in a rebuild somewhat help the team get to the salary floor and can provide guidance for some young players coming in. But having added a couple of bigger dollar term contracts in Markstrom and Tanev, that makes it a bit trickier. Plus add in a coach who really is not a good fit for a full rebuild.

They likely will make some sort of move in the offseason, but I think they'll try changing out a bigger piece or two of the team and give that a go before they waive the white flag on a rebuild.

Detroit is looking at a long rebuild because they hung onto their aging core instead of turning it over for young assets to turbo charge the rebuild. Same with the Ducks. That’s exactly what you don’t want to do - hang onto your core until you have to do a rebuild from scratch.

The Devils are three years into their rebuild and will likely start turning things around next season. The Sabres are one of the most inept franchises in pro sports.

Don’t kid yourself, a rebuild is a 4-5 year project. But is that worse than the purgatory of the last 15 years?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Don’t kid yourself, a rebuild is a 4-5 year project. But is that worse than the purgatory of the last 15 years?

Stupid comment is stupid. You'd really rather be Edmonton or Buffalo over the past 15 years? Rebuild after rebuild after rebuild? Entering into a rebuild is no guarantee of anything except further failure. Maybe, MAYBE, at some point you find critical mass in your picks and they turn into something that can MAYBE be competitive, but it is no sure thing. There are more examples of concerted rebuilds failing than succeeding. Retools have been just as successful. The Flames have some really good assets for a retool, they just need to make the right moves.

[ricardodw]

Players that were on the 2003-04 Flames team (the best Flames team for the last 20 years and a big reason the Flames did not leave Calgary) and not on the 2005-06 team

Conroy
Clark
Commodore
Montador
Lowry
Gauthier
Gelanis
Lydman
Nieminen
Oliwa
Saprykin

Players on the 2018-19 flames team that were not on the 2019-2020 team

Hathaway
Neal
Prout
Fantenberg


Management looked at the 2004 team with a critical eye and basically blew the team up. The 2019 team with great regular season and disaster playoff was considered a finished product.

With 20-20 hindsight the best time to blow up a team is after a startling great season.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by New Era

Stupid comment is stupid. You'd really rather be Edmonton or Buffalo over the past 15 years? Rebuild after rebuild after rebuild? Entering into a rebuild is no guarantee of anything except further failure. Maybe, MAYBE, at some point you find critical mass in your picks and they turn into something that can MAYBE be competitive, but it is no sure thing. There are more examples of concerted rebuilds failing than succeeding. Retools have been just as successful. The Flames have some really good assets for a retool, they just need to make the right moves.

Retool into what exactly? The Minnesota Wild? The Nashville Predators? The Dallas Stars (they fluked last season). The Sharks? This roster wasn't a legit cup contender in their peak and I don't see any assets on this roster good enough to bring in elite talent. This team lacks elite talent and you don't retool into that. If you can list an example of failed rosters that retooled themselves into a cup team by all means go ahead and list them but retooling to me is akin to spinning the wheels of mediocrity.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Retool into what exactly? The Minnesota Wild? The Nashville Predators? This roster wasn't a legit cup contender in their peak and I don't see any assets on this roster good enough to bring in elite talent. This team lacks elite talent and you don't retool into that. If you can list an example of failed rosters that retooled themselves into a cup team by all means go ahead and list them but retooling to me is akin to spinning the wheels of mediocrity.

St. Louis Blues.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by TOfan

St. Louis Blues.

Yeah I suppose they are the best example but that was kind of lightning in a bottle involving a mid-season turnaround. They also had higher end pieces than the Flames and weren't afraid to cut bait with core players. All the other players I listed are largely heading down the road of mediocrity.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Retool into what exactly? The Minnesota Wild? The Nashville Predators? The Dallas Stars (they fluked last season). The Sharks? This roster wasn't a legit cup contender in their peak and I don't see any assets on this roster good enough to bring in elite talent. This team lacks elite talent and you don't retool into that. If you can list an example of failed rosters that retooled themselves into a cup team by all means go ahead and list them but retooling to me is akin to spinning the wheels of mediocrity.

They are going to have to dump our top end guys and pay for free agents to get top end players is my guess. You are right that it’s doubtful we will find 1 to 1 trades to upgrade our top end forwards.

So we’ll probably get older and more expensive in the short term. We don’t have any young players in the hopper from what I see.

But our top end forwards are pretty much doing nothing for a lot of money. I’m not sure it could get worse. It would at least be the same.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah I suppose they are the best example but that was kind of lightning in a bottle involving a mid-season turnaround. They also had higher end pieces than the Flames and weren't afraid to cut bait with core players. All the other players I listed are largely heading down the road of mediocrity.

you're likely right. It will be harder for Treliving to find the types of assets, elite ones, than not regardless of what pieces he plans to put into play this offseason. I suppose the one guy might be Tkachuk. Despite this season as it has played out to date, I would imagine some teams would pay a fortune for him. The question is, is Treliving trading like-for-like. Meaning is he getting a potential top of the line up player around the same age?

Despite the argument for some that this team should liquidate its assets and rebuild, I doubt that is in the cards. It seems to fly in the face of the direction this organization has taken essentially since they moved to Calgary. I don't think I am going out on a limb by saying the mandate from ownership is to maximize this window. I also bet Treliving gets this offseason, and next year, to correct course. Not too sure how he is going to do it, but I would be disappointed if some bold moves aren't made this offseason.

[Flame On]

Lots of good points to dissect on retool vs rebuild. I guess both of those also have various degrees of implementation. I wonder how many/how far a retool goes, before it becomes a rebuild.
All this to say if they just get rid of Johnny (which seems to be one of the loudest drums beaten here) does that really accomplish anything.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Retool into what exactly? The Minnesota Wild? The Nashville Predators? The Dallas Stars (they fluked last season). The Sharks? This roster wasn't a legit cup contender in their peak and I don't see any assets on this roster good enough to bring in elite talent. This team lacks elite talent and you don't retool into that. If you can list an example of failed rosters that retooled themselves into a cup team by all means go ahead and list them but retooling to me is akin to spinning the wheels of mediocrity.

Boston Bruins.

Again, what is better? Be in the mix for playoffs, or being out of the playoff picture by American Thanksgiving? I'll take playing meaningful games in March even if it means missing. Four months of meaningless hockey is a horse#### way of being a fan. Now imagine being that way for 30 years? Give me a retool any day.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by New Era

Boston Bruins.

They never retooled. They built that team through their drafting. Their best players in Marchand, Pastrnak, Bergeron, McAvoy, Krejci all 100% drafted and developed Bruins. They haven't brought any of their core players from another team outside of Rask and they just keep adding good players from their pipeline of drafting and development. That is the right way to do it.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Flame On

Lots of good points to dissect on retool vs rebuild. I guess both of those also have various degrees of implementation. I wonder how many/how far a retool goes, before it becomes a rebuild.
All this to say if they just get rid of Johnny (which seems to be one of the loudest drums beaten here) does that really accomplish anything.

yes. I think there is a good chance it does. I am less concerned about what the Flames would be giving up if they trade JG, and more concerned about what they are getting. By this I mean, if JG goes on to play somewhere else and he explodes, fine. So long as the player(s) brought back improve the Flames now and in the future.

If the speculated deal of JG and a 2nd for TK and a 5th has any merit, I would go for it. Factor in the cap savings (more cap space to address other areas of improvement), age and contract term, this seems like a sensible trade to me.

If JG doesn't/can't find his upside here, then it is time to move on.

[Drunk Uncle]

Originally Posted by TOfan

you're likely right. It will be harder for Treliving to find the types of assets, elite ones, than not regardless of what pieces he plans to put into play this offseason. I suppose the one guy might be Tkachuk. Despite this season as it has played out to date, I would imagine some teams would pay a fortune for him. The question is, is Treliving trading like-for-like. Meaning is he getting a potential top of the line up player around the same age?

Despite the argument for some that this team should liquidate its assets and rebuild, I doubt that is in the cards. It seems to fly in the face of the direction this organization has taken essentially since they moved to Calgary. I don't think I am going out on a limb by saying the mandate from ownership is to maximize this window. I also bet Treliving gets this offseason, and next year, to correct course. Not too sure how he is going to do it, but I would be disappointed if some bold moves aren't made this offseason.

Agreed. For the years that you have Sutter, you look to re-tool. For any trade made we need to get the better player back in the deal or not make the trade. If we trade Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Monahan or Lindholm now, we better be getting the best player back in the deal (ie. Eichel). If that type of trade doesn't exist we continue to try add a Rakell type but again only if we get the best player back in the deal.

The goal is exactly what was stated earlier, "catch lightning in a bottle". It doesn't happen often but it does happen and if in two years we're in the same spot, which I see as likely, that is the time to blow it up.

Only extenuating argument to be made is if there is no chance of retaining a player (eg. Gaudreau if he won't sign), you would look to take the best deal regardless of if it nets you the best player back.

[EVERLAST]

How about just for once we start promoting are youth a little quicker.

I say this now because Darryls likely the best coach for them to succeed with in doing that.

In fact we've had some impressive AHL coaches IMO whove helped these young men.....Cale MCLEAN and Troy Ward .
I look at some of our heat players and prospects and I see hope coming.
Theyre being developed well IMO.

When I see guys like Mangiapane, Dube and others we've had play on world Jr's and knowing they've been brought along successfully with that pedigree its exciting.

I hate seeing those players land here and it be a situation where OUR CURRENT SITUATION is in what ??? FREE FALL? HOT BURNT GARBAGE!!!

I don't expect Darryl to fix things that have been broken for over a decade overnight but he is going to need a GM that he won't have to watch his back and be worried about getting knived at every turn.

I keep cheering though.....since the beginning ....and likely always will. Damn loyalty.

[Wolfman]

Originally Posted by EVERLAST

How about just for once we start promoting are youth a little quicker.

I say this now because Darryls likely the best coach for them to succeed with in doing that.

In fact we've had some impressive AHL coaches IMO whove helped these young men.....Cale MCLEAN and Troy Ward .
I look at some of our heat players and prospects and I see hope coming.
Theyre being developed well IMO.

When I see guys like Mangiapane, Dube and others we've had play on world Jr's and knowing they've been brought along successfully with that pedigree its exciting.

I hate seeing those players land here and it be a situation where OUR CURRENT SITUATION is in what ??? FREE FALL? HOT BURNT GARBAGE!!!

I don't expect Darryl to fix things that have been broken for over a decade overnight but he is going to need a GM that he won't have to watch his back and be worried about getting knived at every turn.

I keep cheering though.....since the beginning ....and likely always will. Damn loyalty.

Yes, get some youth in the lineup. Phillips for sure and maybe Ruzicka

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

They never retooled. They built that team through their drafting. Their best players in Marchand, Pastrnak, Bergeron, McAvoy, Krejci all 100% drafted and developed Bruins. They haven't brought any of their core players from another team outside of Rask and they just keep adding good players from their pipeline of drafting and development. That is the right way to do it.

I agree, but they were also unhesitating in moving on from their high valued but flawed players.

Thornton (hard to say he was particularly flawed, but they seem to have bet on the right guys in Bergeron/Krejci)
Kessel
Seguin
Lucic (got a 1st out of his last year)
Hamilton

Only the Kessel trade worked out well for them, but they bet on the right guys. Of course signing Savard and Chara didn't hurt...but contrary to popular belief the Flames are just as capable of signing those kinds of guys if/when they have a promising core.

[Drunk Uncle]

Originally Posted by EVERLAST

How about just for once we start promoting are youth a little quicker.

I say this now because Darryls likely the best coach for them to succeed with in doing that.

In fact we've had some impressive AHL coaches IMO whove helped these young men.....Cale MCLEAN and Troy Ward .
I look at some of our heat players and prospects and I see hope coming.
Theyre being developed well IMO.

When I see guys like Mangiapane, Dube and others we've had play on world Jr's and knowing they've been brought along successfully with that pedigree its exciting.

I hate seeing those players land here and it be a situation where OUR CURRENT SITUATION is in what ??? FREE FALL? HOT BURNT GARBAGE!!!

I don't expect Darryl to fix things that have been broken for over a decade overnight but he is going to need a GM that he won't have to watch his back and be worried about getting knived at every turn.

I keep cheering though.....since the beginning ....and likely always will. Damn loyalty.

No debate in that Daryl would be good for properly bringing in our youth and showing them what it takes to win in the NHL.

However, I certainly don't think Darryl is afraid in any way of being "knifed in the back". Treliving made it explicitly clear there would be no changes to the coaching when he brought on Darryl.

[EVERLAST]

Originally Posted by Drunk Uncle

No debate in that Daryl would be good for properly bringing in our youth and showing them what it takes to win in the NHL.

However, I certainly don't think Darryl is afraid in any way of being "knifed in the back". Treliving made it explicitly clear there would be no changes to the coaching when he brought on Darryl.

Brad WAS told and has NO power anymore. He's not on thin ice he's treading water with big anchors attached to his legs