2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

No doubt! That's precisely what's happening here. Lundell is fine but let's not pretend that Valimaki wasn't outproducing him in the same league only to come here and look like Dog crap. Sorry Vali but it's true.

Yeah, look at Lafreniere, Kakko, and Cozens. All are struggling to break into the NHL. Most prospects go the way of Bennett rather than the other way around.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Would you trade Zary, who has done nothing but raise his stock since being drafted, for Sam Reinhart?

Okay... if prospects are overrated and terribly valued, why are we trading a top 6 center for one??

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Okay... if prospects are overrated and terribly valued, why are we trading a top 6 center for one??

Because the prevailing wisdom around here is that our current mix of players will never win together. Isnt that clear? Stop conflating individual player value with the desire to change the core of this team.

Honestly, I think Monahan for Lundell straight up would be a terribly stupid move for us.

[Monahammer]

Let's be Honest, given everything pre draft and even his point projections, Lundell's top end looks to be exactly what Monahan is, perhaps a bit more defensively responsible (but if you go back and read Mono's scouting reports, they said the exact same.)

This is the boat and the box argument. Lundell could even turn out to be Monahan! but he also could be a mikko koivu, or even a Henrik Borgstrom.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Okay... if prospects are overrated and terribly valued, why are we trading a top 6 center for one??

Lundell straight across is a bad move, would you move Monahan straight across for Zary? Moving a top-6 center for a single non-blue chip prospect, that is bad value. In a package to shake up the core then sure.

I still think the Flames will go the re-tool route and try to trade Monahan and Gaudreau for other NHL players though unless Markstrom turns out to be a complete dud.

Originally Posted by Monahammer

This is the boat and the box argument. Lundell could even turn out to be Monahan! but will likely be a mikko koivu, or even a Henrik Borgstrom.

FYP

[bax]

I think anything short of a trip to the West final this post season results in some pretty significant changes to the group. I predict that Treliving will go after young-ish, already established NHL players that Sutter can mold. Think we will try to be a team better than the sum of its parts.

Players I can see us having interest in are Konecny, Dvorak, Garland, Debrusk, Frost, Rakell, etc. I think Bennett, Monahan, and Gaudreau will all be moved. Hopefully we can add some picks/prospects as well.

Can also see Treliving go after a few free agents. Hall, Foligno, Granlund, etc.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Player A: Age: 26 on the trade block. Former top 10 pick. Whole career with one team to this point. 2 years at ~6 mil remaining on contract. Centre.

Games Goals Assists Points +/-
586 178 250 428 -60


Player B: Age: 26 on the trade block. Former top 10 pick. Whole career with one team to this point. 2 years at ~6 mil remaining on contract. Centre.
Games Goals Assists Points +/-
572 201 230 431 -30


Duchene was worse, cost more relative to cap, and was actively pouting for a trade. He returned Ottawa's 2017 1st, Shane Bowers, a 2018 1st, a 2018 2nd, a 2018 3rd, Sam Girard (2016 2nd round pick) and Vlad Kamenev (2014 2nd).

Maybe we should have offered Monahan then.


Pretty sure your facts are wrong...it was only one 1st that bumped back by a year


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[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Player A: Age: 26 on the trade block. Former top 10 pick. Whole career with one team to this point. 2 years at ~6 mil remaining on contract. Centre.

Games Goals Assists Points +/-
586 178 250 428 -60


Player B: Age: 26 on the trade block. Former top 10 pick. Whole career with one team to this point. 2 years at ~6 mil remaining on contract. Centre.
Games Goals Assists Points +/-
572 201 230 431 -30


Duchene was worse, cost more relative to cap, and was actively pouting for a trade. He returned Ottawa's 2017 1st, Shane Bowers, a 2018 1st, a 2018 2nd, a 2018 3rd, Sam Girard (2016 2nd round pick) and Vlad Kamenev (2014 2nd).

One massive difference between the players is Duchene's skating ability, which inflated his value. His 'tools' at a glance are more tantalizing than Mony. Now, he's fallen off a cliff and I wouldn't touch him with a ten-foot pole, but his skillset was elite and potential was never realized. GM's pay a premium for tools like MD.

Bad trade is a bad trade, though. Good for Sakic. Again, we should prepare to be massively disappointed expecting anything close to that for Mony.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

One massive difference between the players is Duchene's skating ability, which inflated his value. His 'tools' at a glance are more tantalizing than Mony. Now, he's fallen off a cliff and I wouldn't touch him with a ten-foot pole, but his skillset was elite and potential was never realized. GM's pay a premium for tools like MD.

Bad trade is a bad trade, though. Good for Sakic. Again, we should prepare to be massively disappointed expecting anything close to that for Mony.

I suppose one could argue that the Duchene deal having not worked out for the Sens is an argument that you wouldn’t get that package for Monahan. Assuming GMs can see what happened and learn.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Because the prevailing wisdom around here is that our current mix of players will never win together. Isnt that clear? Stop conflating individual player value with the desire to change the core of this team.

Honestly, I think Monahan for Lundell straight up would be a terribly stupid move for us.

It would be a terrible swap. The Panthers would be adding to Lundell. I’m merely saying it doesn’t make sense on their part when they are desperate need of Lundell succeeding and becoming an NHLer, 2C behind Barkov.

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Let's be Honest, given everything pre draft and even his point projections, Lundell's top end looks to be exactly what Monahan is, perhaps a bit more defensively responsible (but if you go back and read Mono's scouting reports, they said the exact same.)

This is the boat and the box argument. Lundell could even turn out to be Monahan! but he also could be a mikko koivu, or even a Henrik Borgstrom.

And you’re absolutely right, Lundell could be a bust. But, the Flames are in need of a retool, and with the moves we made (Tanev/Markstrom/Sutter) we will be wanting to trade for players who also aren’t working out with their respective organization. See Jack Eichel.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I suppose one could argue that the Duchene deal having not worked out for the Sens is an argument that you wouldn’t get that package for Monahan. Assuming GMs can see what happened and learn.

It's just one in a long list of trades like that. It's probably the richest overall, but if anything that just shows that over time the price for centres that produce in the top 30 offensively over 6 seasons are worth a lot and prospects are actually not.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Maybe we should have offered Monahan then.


Pretty sure your facts are wrong...it was only one 1st that bumped back by a year


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Shane Bowers (2017 1st), 2018 first (Bumped to 2019; Sens took Tkachuk in 2018, Bowen Byram selected 4th overall 2019 by COL), 2018 2nd, 2018 3rd, Andrew Hammond, Girard, and Kamenev was the return for Colorado after the three way settled. My post may have been misleading as Shane Bowers was already selected as the 2017 1st round pick of the sens.

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

One massive difference between the players is Duchene's skating ability, which inflated his value. His 'tools' at a glance are more tantalizing than Mony. Now, he's fallen off a cliff and I wouldn't touch him with a ten-foot pole, but his skillset was elite and potential was never realized. GM's pay a premium for tools like MD.

Bad trade is a bad trade, though. Good for Sakic. Again, we should prepare to be massively disappointed expecting anything close to that for Mony.

You could say the same for Monahan's wrist shot in the slot as Duchene's skating ability. A tantalizing ability that could see someone like Monahan score 40-50 goals in an ideal situation.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Player A: Age: 26 on the trade block. Former top 10 pick. Whole career with one team to this point. 2 years at ~6 mil remaining on contract. Centre.

Games Goals Assists Points +/-
586 178 250 428 -60


Player B: Age: 26 on the trade block. Former top 10 pick. Whole career with one team to this point. 2 years at ~6 mil remaining on contract. Centre.
Games Goals Assists Points +/-
572 201 230 431 -30


Duchene was worse, cost more relative to cap, and was actively pouting for a trade. He returned Ottawa's 2017 1st, Shane Bowers, a 2018 1st, a 2018 2nd, a 2018 3rd, Sam Girard (2016 2nd round pick) and Vlad Kamenev (2014 2nd).

What Duchene actually returned:

Turris (expiring 3.5M)
1st rd pick (Top 10 protected 2018) - expected to be ~#10-25; bumped to following year
3rd rd pick (2019)
Shane Bowers (28OA pick in 2017 playing in the NCAA)
Hammond (expiring 3rd string goalie)


That they were able to flip Turris for some assets that turned out to be really good is notable, but doesn't really help inform trade value.

So it was a complicated deal (hard to imagine in current environment); Dorion may have already had the Turris trade halfway.

Ultimately, the value was:
a rental player with good trade value
mid 1st
mid 3rd
very good D prospect playing in the NCAA.


Sometimes you do chase the magic beans and they pay off.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Shane Bowers (2017 1st), 2018 first (Bumped to 2019; Sens took Tkachuk in 2018, Bowen Byram selected 4th overall 2019 by COL), 2018 2nd, 2018 3rd, Andrew Hammond, Girard, and Kamenev was the return for Colorado after the three way settled. My post may have been misleading as Shane Bowers was already selected as the 2017 1st round pick of the sens.

That's more clear, thanks. I still think it's tough to transpose a 3-way trade to inform present value.

Trades are always catching lightning in a bottle, but that was 2 bolts at once.

[atb]

Core shakeup plus leadership change is needed this summer. Moving out Monahan+ for Eichel and Gaudreau for Konecny and somehow getting Seattle to take Giordano would be my ideal moves.

I think there's still more upside to Tkachuk that I'm hoping Sutter squeeze out.

[ComixZone]

Dubas attending Sens/Flames game.

Scouting someone...?

[neo45]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Dubas attending Sens/Flames game.

Scouting someone...?

Hopefully Gio, and hopefully he missed him fall for no reason and give up a breakaway

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Tkachukwagon

Florida has to dump Connolly and his $3.5 million a year as well. Monohan for Lundell,
Connolly and another prospect/pick?

Monahan, Leivo, and Zavgorodniy for Connolly, Lundell, and Tippett?

Leivo a cheap depth guy for the playoffs. Zavgorodniy to help contract number balance and the prospect pool hit. Flames get a RW with size to play right now and then a couple prospects that could step in next season.

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Dubas attending Sens/Flames game.

Scouting someone...?

Sam Bennett please.

[Sandman]

Maybe Benny's going home....

EDIT: Or maybe Nylander is coming home! LOL

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Dubas attending Sens/Flames game.

Scouting someone...?

Monahan and Bennett and a pick for Tavares with some retained.