Brad Treliving needs to go

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Igottago

But its not like they've never performed well at the NHL level, there was a time they were highly effective if not dominant as top line players. What happened? It's like they never mentally recovered from the Colorado series. It's really strange to see the top 2 players fall of a cliff like they have.

It was never mental. It’s actually mostly physical. The Avalanche played the Flames perfectly top line perfectly and it’s been a recipe to shut them down for a loooong time now. This is what I’ve seen over the last several years:


How to beat Monahan and Gaudreau 101:

They mostly hurt you on the rush, so all you have to do is defend their counterattack you’ll effectively shut them down.

- Puck always funnels to Gaudreau
- Ok, don’t be aggressive on forecheck
- Drop your F2 and your F3 back
- Layer your backcheck
- Don’t attack Gaudreau because he can make you look bad one vs one
- Play it conservatively, keep him along the boards, don’t allow him to go east-west
- Keep a good gap on Monahan and __insert_RW__
- If Gaudreau tries to pass to Monahan, keep stick in lane to intercept
- If support is there, step up on Gaudreau just before or after the blue line to force turnover


DONE. Gaudreau and Monahan completely neutralized. Easy and predictable because the puck always ends up funneling to Gaudreau and management has done nothing to address this problem. Their final solution was to stick Josh Leivo, Dominic Simon and Brett Ritchie there. Well done guys, Gaudreau and Monahan’s even strength scoring has completely cratered and their trade value has completely fallen off a cliff from just 2 years ago, well done.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

It was never mental. It’s actually mostly physical. The Avalanche played the Flames perfectly top line perfectly and it’s been a recipe to shut them down for a loooong time now. This is what I’ve seen over the last several years:


How to beat Monahan and Gaudreau 101:

They mostly hurt you on the rush, so all you have to do is defend their counterattack you’ll effectively shut them down.

- Puck always funnels to Gaudreau
- Ok, don’t be aggressive on forecheck
- Drop your F2 and your F3 back
- Layer your backcheck
- Don’t attack Gaudreau because he can make you look bad one vs one
- Play it conservatively, keep him along the boards, don’t allow him to go east-west
- Keep a good gap on Monahan and __insert_RW__
- If Gaudreau tries to pass to Monahan, keep stick in lane to intercept
- If support is there, step up on Gaudreau just before or after the blue line to force turnover


DONE. Gaudreau and Monahan completely neutralized. Easy and predictable because the puck always ends up funneling to Gaudreau and management has done nothing to address this problem. Their final solution was to stick Josh Leivo, Dominic Simon and Brett Ritchie there. Well done guys, Gaudreau and Monahan’s even strength scoring has completely cratered and their trade value has completely fallen off a cliff from just 2 years ago, well done.

At what point is it on those 2 guys to find a way to adapt then if their game is exploited like that? The whole last season and a bit with Lindholm they were terrible as well. Monahan is trying to change his game to a 200ft game I guess. Johnny is what he is and that might work on a stacked team but not this one.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Teams adjusted and they haven't been able to re-adjust.
And likely the dizzying heights of that one season are proving to be more a blip than the reality of who they are.

Too much offensive success too soon. They never learned to play a complete game, never adjusted. They became complacent and entitled. Management and coaches hoped they might come around and change their games. They didn’t. Maybe they can’t.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

At what point is it on those 2 guys to find a way to adapt then if their game is exploited like that? The whole last season and a bit with Lindholm they were terrible as well. Monahan is trying to change his game to a 200ft game I guess. Johnny is what he is and that might work on a stacked team but not this one.

Do you not see the real problem here?

The puck always funnels to Gaudreau! That’s what makes them predictable and easy to beat.

The strategy to defend a winger is infinitely more easier then if the puck funnels to the center. With a center, they have the entire sheet of ice to work with whereas if the puck funnels to your winger regardless of right (Lindholm) or left (Gaudreau), then the ice gets cut in half.

Centers win you Cups and this organization quite simply put, has not had the right centers to get this team over the hump and to the next level.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Do you not see the real problem here?

The puck always funnels to Gaudreau! That’s what makes them predictable and easy to beat.

The strategy to defend a winger is infinitely more easier then if the puck funnels to the center. With a center, they have the entire sheet of ice to work with whereas if the puck funnels to your winger regardless of right (Lindholm) or left (Gaudreau), then the ice gets cut in half.

Centers win you Cups and this organization quite simply put, has not had the right centers to get this team over the hump and to the next level.

I don't disagree entirely but after Bennett went full bust what opportunities have they had to land a legitimate number one center?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Too much offensive success too soon. They never learned to play a complete game, never adjusted. They became complacent and entitled. Management and coaches hoped they might come around and change their games. They didn’t. Maybe they can’t.

I don’t think that’s the problem here though. They’re not great defensively, quite bad at times actually, but they still score more then they give up though. The biggest problem with this team/core is that they can’t score enough goals. They’re about league average to below average most years. They finally get an elite goaltender this season and now they can’t score enough to win most nights.

There’s too many holes up front, important position players aren’t good enough and the cap/cupboards are in rough shape. The Flames are just in bad spot right now and it’s sad because playing in this all Canadian division has maybe highlighted that we’re in the worst position in Canada. Even the lowly Ottawa Senators could be real good in a couple years. The Flames on the other hand look to be stuck in mediocrity for another decade unless something drastic changes.

[DeluxeMoustache]

You don’t need to have a center who is a genius to make the decision that Johnny isn’t the go to puck carrier more often than not

All you need is to decide that the center will some of the time carry the puck down the middle with both wingers going north south up their respective sides. Toronto looked like they drew up some zone entries on a table hockey game, and several times used it to gain the zone with ease against Calgary

One thing I saw Calgary doing in a few early games with Sutter was also that the chaser was hitting the blue line with speed. If it was being dumped, the dumper has to put it in while they are onside. I saw them have to turn back and tag up a few times against Ottawa.

And they are clearly adjusting to Sutter. Last game was brutal to watch with so many picks rimmed around from the left side to the right D, couple with short shifts, the forwards not being traffic for point shots as their 30 seconds were up and they were headed to the bench. Awful timing

[browntrout]

Originally Posted by Saqe

Stone and O'Reilly could've been had if he paid the price. Dubois debatable.

No GM in the league manages their team in the fashion you are describing...every transaction has to make sense, and in all honesty you are making assumptions here to fit your narrative. Does Stone instantly make this team a Stanley Cup contender, that you are so sure of.

I get fans disappointment with the team and the GM may be eventually let go to embrace a new vision, but to say that if the GM did this or that, that things would have been different, that is very subjective.

[VladtheImpaler]

I think the only realistic hope is to accumulate as many picks as possible and finally draft Brayden Point or Jamie Benn. Which is why trading all those picks for crap so vexes me...

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

I don't disagree entirely but after Bennett went full bust what opportunities have they had to land a legitimate number one center?

Well, they rebuilt too quick for one thing. In hindsight, that might have been the biggest bungle of all.

I mean, maybe Brad Treliving doesn’t trade for Dougie Hamilton and the Flames draft Mathew Barzal instead. Maybe Tre doesn’t trade for Brian Elliott and the Flames draft Jordan Kyrou instead. Maybe Treliving trades for Aleksander Barkov in 2015 after another underwhelming season. Maybe the Flames could’ve tankes a little harder in 2013 or 2014 and draft a Barkov or a Draisaitl instead, I mean I don’t know, this all fantasy land stuff here. None of us know what was available and what wasn’t available to this organization over the last few years, only Treliving and co knows that and personally, I would love to have a sit down with him to see what he would re-do and what he would have done differently.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I continue to think that Treliving should get another year. But for me, my responses about what I think ownership will do have a lot to do with countering those who seem to expect that the GM will be fired after every loss, and who appear ready to accept anyone in his place. Such suppositions are fairly irrational.

IMO very few people EXPECT him to be fired after every loss, but at this point a great many likely do WANT a new GM.

It’s no more irrational to want any new GM than to argue Treliving is the best possible GM we could hope to have. Since in fact no one is making either argument, I’d say no one is being irrational.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

How to beat Monahan and Gaudreau 101:

1) Make sure the puck goes to Gaudreau.

2) Stand up at the top of the circles.

Gaudreau will either button hook or blow snow resulting in the immediate turn over of the puck.

Seriously, when he got that break away to score, I was shocked that he didn't circle back once he crossed the blueline, just out of habit.

The problem with Gaudreau is Gaudreau. The problem with Monahan is having to play the puck retrieval role when he's the sniper. The problem with the line is they don't have a guy that can do the things they don't. The really dumb thing is the guy they need is on another ineffective line that Sutter is refusing to break up as well. This team gets what it deserves.

[browntrout]

I wish there was a game breaking centre available...., But not likely...I have accepted this team has peaked, it's time to rebuild/retool through the draft, but with doing that comes patience, something not common in Canadian hockey markets.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

You don’t need to have a center who is a genius to make the decision that Johnny isn’t the go to puck carrier more often than not

All you need is to decide that the center will some of the time carry the puck down the middle with both wingers going north south up their respective sides. Toronto looked like they drew up some zone entries on a table hockey game, and several times used it to gain the zone with ease against Calgary

One thing I saw Calgary doing in a few early games with Sutter was also that the chaser was hitting the blue line with speed. If it was being dumped, the dumper has to put it in while they are onside. I saw them have to turn back and tag up a few times against Ottawa.

And they are clearly adjusting to Sutter. Last game was brutal to watch with so many picks rimmed around from the left side to the right D, couple with short shifts, the forwards not being traffic for point shots as their 30 seconds were up and they were headed to the bench. Awful timing

I noticed in the Toronto games that Ritchie was getting the puck and dumping. The puck went from Monahan, who had retrieved the puck in the D zone, to Gaudreau who brought it out and hit Ritchie going up the RW, who then dumps it in. But that's F'd up because Gaudreau's not going to be effective chasing and Monahan was the deepest forward in the D zone, so he was not going to be getting there in time to dig it.

Gaudreau doesn't have to be funneled either. He too often consciously goes to the left boards when he doesn't have to. Nothing is stopping him from skating up the middle of the ice. And when he's funnelled he stops skating even when he dumps. No reason to stop and not help with the chase.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Well, they rebuilt too quick for one thing. In hindsight, that might have been the biggest bungle of all.

I mean, maybe Brad Treliving doesn’t trade for Dougie Hamilton and the Flames draft Mathew Barzal instead. Maybe Tre doesn’t trade for Brian Elliott and the Flames draft Jordan Kyrou instead. Maybe Treliving trades for Aleksander Barkov in 2015 after another underwhelming season. Maybe the Flames could’ve tankes a little harder in 2013 or 2014 and draft a Barkov or a Draisaitl instead, I mean I don’t know, this all fantasy land stuff here. None of us know what was available and what wasn’t available to this organization over the last few years, only Treliving and co knows that and personally, I would love to have a sit down with him to see what he would re-do and what he would have done differently.

When the Flames got Hamilton, Bennett had just been drafted, and had played a great PO round against Vancouver. It was even before his rookie year. The expectation was that the Flames had a future Gilmour/Toews style 1C and a really good 2C in Monahan. A high scoring RHS D was a perceived need. Especially when, after Gio and Brodie, your next best D was Wideman, who was pretty limited.

Keep in mind, too, that there was also perceived centre potential in Colborne - a 16OA who scored 19G and 44 points that year, and Jankowski, who did pretty well in college that year.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I noticed in the Toronto games that Ritchie was getting the puck and dumping. The puck went from Monahan, who had retrieved the puck in the D zone, to Gaudreau who brought it out and hit Ritchie going up the RW, who then dumps it in. But that's F'd up because Gaudreau's not going to be effective chasing and Monahan was the deepest forward in the D zone, so he was not going to be getting there in time to dig it.

Gaudreau doesn't have to be funneled either. He too often consciously goes to the left boards when he doesn't have to. Nothing is stopping him from skating up the middle of the ice. And when he's funnelled he stops skating even when he dumps. No reason to stop and not help with the chase.

Gaudreau has some of the best lateral skating and ability to go east to west that I’ve ever seen, so if there’s any winger who can figure out when to and when not to go up the middle, it’s probably him. But the way teams are defending this line right now is the main problem, the track back on this line doesn’t allow Gaudreau or even Ritchie the time/space needed to make plays or slow the pace of play so they can come up as a strong unit of 5.

Darryl Sutter’s arrival hasn’t helped that line much either. I’ve never seen them dump and chase so much which is absolutely not their game at all. A trade is almost inevitable at this point as the clash in styles is too apparent.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

When the Flames got Hamilton, Bennett had just been drafted, and had played a great PO round against Vancouver. It was even before his rookie year. The expectation was that the Flames had a future Gilmour/Toews style 1C and a really good 2C in Monahan. A high scoring RHS D was a perceived need. Especially when, after Gio and Brodie, your next best D was Wideman, who was pretty limited.

Keep in mind, too, that there was also perceived centre potential in Colborne - a 16OA who scored 19G and 44 points that year, and Jankowski, who did pretty well in college that year.

Yes, I’m not saying it wasn’t a tantalizing idea for Treliving to go all in, there were obvious reasons to do so. But in hindsight, going all in was a mistake. The rebuild was ultimately short and it has left the organization with major holes to fill with very little cap space to work with. They tried to supplement the whole pairs thing with league minimum wingers which was a decent attempt to try something different, but ultimately has been a complete disaster. Think that’s four goals now for all the new faces up front this season...just an abomination.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

I don't disagree entirely but after Bennett went full bust what opportunities have they had to land a legitimate number one center?

The 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, or 2019 drafts. But in all of those, Dubé is the only guy with a shred of hope to be a C that they picked in the top 100. Unlike G, D, and W, it is impossible to draft a #1C outside the top 100. Joe Pavelski (rarely played pure C?) and Andy McDonald (undrafted) are the only exceptions since Datsyuk.


I'll even add the 2014 draft, just to lament Burke's failure to trade Cammalleri. They could've still made the terrible selections they did, but another 2nd/3rd might have yielded: Point, Merzlikins, Dvorak, or Montour.

I reckon Cammi would've fetched something like a 2nd +cond. 3rd-5th in different years, but Burke seems to have stubbornly held out for a 1st. Another crack in 2015 might've yielded Cirelli, Caleb Jones, M Joseph, Garland, or Bear. Long odds, but still inexcusable to not have moved him.

[Reign of Fire]

The reality is Treliving failed. He had a couple of big-time trades, good RFA signing, but overall his tenure is a failed one.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by New Era

1) Make sure the puck goes to Gaudreau.

2) Stand up at the top of the circles.

Gaudreau will either button hook or blow snow resulting in the immediate turn over of the puck.

Seriously, when he got that break away to score, I was shocked that he didn't circle back once he crossed the blueline, just out of habit.

The problem with Gaudreau is Gaudreau. The problem with Monahan is having to play the puck retrieval role when he's the sniper. The problem with the line is they don't have a guy that can do the things they don't. The really dumb thing is the guy they need is on another ineffective line that Sutter is refusing to break up as well. This team gets what it deserves.

Trying to make your Pablo Escobar bull #### work?

Lol