Cameron documentary claims to have found Jesus' Tomb. Oh, and dead body too...

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Do you actually see a difference between "he planned it" and "he planned FOR it"?

Escape route? Seriously?

And I don't want the think that if He exists, he's a dink and a ****-up. Quite the opposite, actually. If I'm going to believe in something clever enough to invent the sun and design my eyeballs, I have to believe that it's a pretty smart being, not prone to crazy mistakes and insistent on writing instruction manuals that are impossible to make sense of and dependent on sequels.

Absolutely I see a difference. In He planned it, it means that He made humans specifically to screw up in order to ensure that He'd have to do all this other stuff. In He planned for it, He made humans to be His companions, knowing our inherent flaws and taking them into consideration. He didn't plan them to happen, but He knew they would. That's what happens when you have free will.

I don't know what term you'd like me to use because obviously you're deliberately being obtuse here. Does it matter what I say when I say He created an easier method, a different way, whatever the heck you want to call it! It doesn't matter what the term is.

Are they His mistakes or are they ours? We don't have to be such royal screw ups. He didn't make the mistake. He gave us free will because He cared enough to do so, knowing that with it, we'd bring upon our own destruction, we'd have our own companionship and wouldn't need His anymore, and eventually, we'd turn our backs on Him.

And 2000 years ago the rules made perfect sense. Then we became overpopulated and started living in cities and we needed group worship just to have any kind of worship at all and we changed our own rules.

Why should God not take into consideration that time moves forward and with it, so does knowledge and language? As a matter of fact, He does, or He tried to knowing that we were dependant on the language written 2000 years ago when he started talking about drying up a river and a 100 million man army and the mark of the beast. Do you think they understood any of what they were writing? Does it make more sense now? Certainly. He knew the limitations of language at the time, and knew what the world would become. He wrote the Book of Revelation in a language that's 2000 years old. They didn't have words like technology and computer back then, so He worked with what He had in order to create something we can interpret in todays language. I'd say that's pretty good. He has given us a warning and told us to take heed. He has told us exactly what the signs are so we know when to prepare for His return. That's a pretty forgiving Father, no?

What I'm saying is this: God took into consideration that our desire for knowledge would lead us to different places over the course of time. As such, He also needed to implement change. He knew that humans would evolve and overpopulate the planet and develop technology etc. If there was no Jesus, and there were more Jews because of it, what would the world look like today with people burning all the animals that we now eat? Do you think He really didn't see that we would starve to death? So He said we can stop now. You need that to eat. (Again, just another example...) He HAS taken this into consideration which is why His rules change.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Why should she settle for only one husband when she could have more? I didn't say it's going to create independant women, I just don't buy that it reinforces male dominance in all cases.

I think society suffers when there's no one at home caring for the children. Why not have an extra spouse to do just that?

In theory I suppose that a female could have more than one husband. However I don't think our society has come that far for it to happen. I mean females are still fighting for equal rights in this day and age.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Burninator

In theory I suppose that a female could have more than one husband. However I don't think our society has come that far for it to happen. I mean females are still fighting for equal rights in this day and age.

This is a whole other discussion we need to get into some other time, methinks. The point still stands though. There really isn't much of a reason to outlaw polygamy anymore. It should be my choice if I want to have more than one husband or if I want to give my marital duties to some other women once in a while...

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

What contradicting evidence do you have that god doesnt exist or never did exist? Just wondering, you made a flame post so I assume you have something to back it up?

MYK

Same question the other way around. What evidence is there that God does exist? I assume a lot of folks would say, look at the world around you, but is that really evidence of God? Is it evidence of the God that Christianity believes in?

Religion is a tool to comfort the idea of the unexplainable. Genesis and Revelations are a way to define finite time for existence because we viewed everything as finite in our existence. Depending on your perspective the universe, time, etc is finite or infinite. Dealing with infinity is mind bending sometimes.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

So you want me to come up with proof that, "god doesnt exist or never did exist"?

That is the essence of the issue, isn't it?

Yes, you clearly posted that poster of the belief that you believe God doesnt exist and or never existed and so along with the Flood, 10 Commandments, Jesus etc so I am assuming you have evidence to back that up.

The poster clearly attempts to put in clear light that all beliefs that arent based on scientific proof are BS so the burden of proof is on your shoulders.

Since I see you are attempting to back out in providing proof I will provide some. Men have 1 fewer rib than women. Name a monkey or relative of the species that also has that trait since "science" clearly believes we came from monkeys (or an offshoot of such) yet the bible clearly has a different reason for the difference in the number of ribs.

I will even accept a theory on why we might have evolved with men haveing one less rib than women.

I am waiting.

Thanks

MYK

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

If I'm looking for anything I guess it's "rationality" or "proof" or "something that makes sense". If anyone can put anything that satisfies those criteria in front of me then I will hopefully get it.

There is no 'proof'....anyways not the kind you're looking for.

I can't say much about rationality, to me thats just a matter of how you look at it.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Yes, you clearly posted that poster of the belief that you believe God doesnt exist and or never existed and so along with the Flood, 10 Commandments, Jesus etc so I am assuming you have evidence to back that up.

I am waiting.

Thanks

MYK

Athiesm is a leap of faith that the universe just is. It requires the same level of proof that any other religion does. So while he goes about proving that God doesn't/never existed, you can go ahead and prove that he does.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Why should she settle for only one husband when she could have more? I didn't say it's going to create independant women, I just don't buy that it reinforces male dominance in all cases.

I think society suffers when there's no one at home caring for the children. Why not have an extra spouse to do just that?

I agree. There are plenty of matriarchal societies dominated by females in history. Also, my great-grandfather had eight wives (as was customary in Chinese culture) and all his descendants turned out pretty much alright, except for squabbles about the will, etc. which happens to any other family.

It could certainly work the other way, family structure is a cultural and social construct. This has been documented in matriarchal societies in Africa, Island cultures, etc.

If we go back to religious discussion, polygamy is prevalent in the Torah, Bible, and the Koran. The usual excuse by apologetics today is that those people mistakenly integrated portions of secular culture as it was at the time into their practices...yet I don't see any overt condemnation of polygamy in any of these religious texts whatsoever while there are clearly condemnations of other things.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Interesting... Why is Gay marriage the scapegoat then?

I haven't heard anyone on here asking for marriages to be annulled because a M/F couple engages in Sodomy. That in itself is bias. The reason a lot of people have been accusing the "Christian" community of attacking gays is because their actions speak louder than words.

And?

Don't you think it is their right to voice their opinion? Seems to me you want to take away their free speech because they disagree with you on something.

I don't stand in a picket line saying that God is punishing Canada/US because their citizens, some of them, engage in homosexual activity.

I already said it before, hate the sin, love the sinner.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone....."

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

And?

Don't you think it is their right to voice their opinion? Seems to me you want to take away their free speech because they disagree with you on something.

He didn't say they couldn't voice their opinion, he was providing counterpoints to that opinion, just like everyone here is doing. Just because someone disagrees with a point of view doesn't imply they're automatically requiring the other side to no longer have freedom of speech... no idea where that came from...

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

So you want me to come up with proof that, "god doesnt exist or never did exist"?

That is the essence of the issue, isn't it?

I would say its better then posting a picture that has no other purpose then to start a flame war.

Some people might find it funny, I don't.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by FireFly

This is a whole other discussion we need to get into some other time, methinks. The point still stands though. There really isn't much of a reason to outlaw polygamy anymore. It should be my choice if I want to have more than one husband or if I want to give my marital duties to some other women once in a while...

Agreed. I think I've derailed this thread enough.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Azure

And?

Don't you think it is their right to voice their opinion? Seems to me you want to take away their free speech because they disagree with you on something.

I don't stand in a picket line saying that God is punishing Canada/US because their citizens, some of them, engage in homosexual activity.

I already said it before, hate the sin, love the sinner.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone....."

If you ask me, many of those picketers are not taking that statement to heart and are probably hating the sinners just as much as the percieved sin. Picketing and verbally abusing and encouraging violence or discrimation in that manner can easily be "tossing the first stone". Remember free speech is a secular institution, there is no such thing in the Bible.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Pretty much... and until you can prove he doesn't exist, then it seems obvious that God rests with his Son on clouds, being serenaded by Cherbus and Seraphins, while the rest of us strum harps and wear the all-whites of the home team.

The burden of proof CLEARLY rests on your shoulders Bobble... infidel...

Nice. I love posts like that.

There is no 'proof.' There never will be any 'proof', so if you're looking for 'proof' I suggest you try somewhere else.

Its a 'belief' system, based on your faith in that belief. It is not based on evidence that God exists.

I wonder how many more times that statement will have to be posted before you catch on.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by FireFly

This is a whole other discussion we need to get into some other time, methinks. The point still stands though. There really isn't much of a reason to outlaw polygamy anymore. It should be my choice if I want to have more than one husband or if I want to give my marital duties to some other women once in a while...

Even though we're way off-topic now... I have to say that your defense of polygamy is really just a band-aid solution to the root problem in today's society... namely, laziness, apathy, self-centeredness and entitlement.

People are too lazy to have a strong professional life and a strong family life, so they are always looking to pass it off to someone else, be it, daycares, babysitters, the government, schools, or now, extra spouses. Then, when things get tough, they get divorced, or an alternative means of fleeing the situation, hell, we even have children divorcing their parents, how disgusting is that... I mean, if our parents and grandparents were able to tough it out, why can't our generations? I really think we are in a society where conventional married couples reaching 25 or 50 years of marriage will be a rarity. We're becoming way too greedy and selfish.

The solution is a return to family (not religious) values. Not further dilution of them with polygamy.

End of Rant.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by kermitology

Same question the other way around. What evidence is there that God does exist?

There is none.

Now if you're the type of person who has to see things before you actually believe it, I guess Christianity isn't your type of religion.

There are many other religions that worship the sun, the moon, some idol in a dark room....perhaps they would better suit you if you demand evidence that whomever you worship exists.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by kermitology

Athiesm is a leap of faith that the universe just is. It requires the same level of proof that any other religion does. So while he goes about proving that God doesn't/never existed, you can go ahead and prove that he does.

I was not the one who demanded evidence he DOESNT exist as the post clearly indicates (yellow stars for science, red icons for religion).

When you write a flame post and have nothing to back it up then its up to YOU to defend youself.

I NEVER said there is scientific proof God does exists, I believe it on faith and that is enough for me. Too many times people let stuff go on this forum and I will not let this go.

The post is clear flame bait to say that all religion is BS because it isnt based on science.

I have been baited and will not let this go until an answer is posted. When you are an adult and you say something like that you should have the morale fibre to at least back it up.

I dont post horses are puprle with no evidence to back it up. The poster never intended it to be a joke, there is no emoticon in his/her post.

Thanks

MYK

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

He didn't say they couldn't voice their opinion, he was providing counterpoints to that opinion, just like everyone here is doing. Just because someone disagrees with a point of view doesn't imply they're automatically requiring the other side to no longer have freedom of speech... no idea where that came from...

Perhaps if you'd read through the whole thread you'd noticed that both me and FF have said a true Christian should not hate homosexuals.

The misconception you're making is that if Christians hate homosexuality, and don't agree with gay marriage, they automatically hate homosexuals.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

Nice. I love posts like that.

There is no 'proof.' There never will be any 'proof', so if you're looking for 'proof' I suggest you try somewhere else.

Its a 'belief' system, based on your faith in that belief. It is not based on evidence that God exists.

I wonder how many more times that statement will have to be posted before you catch on.

Sure, and everyone has a right to their beliefs. I think it strikes some people as funny/odd that one person would choose to believe in Cherubs, Seraphins, golden bugles, stars leading shepherds, virgin conception, transcendence, transmutation, eating the 'literal' body and blood of Christ (Catholics) every Sunday, etc, etc.

I don't have an issue at all with believing in a higher being of some kind. I have issue with the fairy tale we've weaved to explain things that are unexplainable. I beleive the general concept of a God can be real... sitting on clouds while angelic hosts sing in their multitudes... seems like a bit of wishful thinking. I'm not sure when we can't prove one way or the other these kinds of things that some would choose a highly elaborate belief system full of structure, rules, and guidelines based on 'you can't prove it doesn't exist' logic...

But to each their own.

[photon]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Yes, you clearly posted that poster of the belief that you believe God doesnt exist and or never existed and so along with the Flood, 10 Commandments, Jesus etc so I am assuming you have evidence to back that up.

The poster clearly attempts to put in clear light that all beliefs that arent based on scientific proof are BS so the burden of proof is on your shoulders.

You cannot prove a negative (i.e. you cannot prove there is no God) so the burden of proof falls to the person who is proposing the existance of that thing. You can't go the other way, logically it does not work.

As for things like the global flood that covered the entire earth, there is lots of evidence that it never happened and little evidence that it did.

Since I see you are attempting to back out in providing proof I will provide some. Men have 1 fewer rib than women. Name a monkey or relative of the species that also has that trait since "science" clearly believes we came from monkeys (or an offshoot of such) yet the bible clearly has a different reason for the difference in the number of ribs.

I will even accept a theory on why we might have evolved with men haveing one less rib than women.

I am waiting.

Thanks

MYK

You can't be serious. You do know that men and women have the same number of ribs don't you?

Of course taking away evidnce that you've used to support your position won't make you reconsider your position, will it?