[PGT] Flames lose 7-3 to Edmonton...

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I’m interested, I’ll bite.

Centres with 7 complete seasons, 200 goals , never played wing and then moved to wing

Who are all of these players?

Edit: looks like I’m second to ask

Monahan played some games on LW as a rookie but I generally agree. Plus the lines I’ve seen by people wanting him on wing have him on RW which would be even harder.

Plus I think he’s been pretty decent in his own zone at C, which is Sutters main concern I bet. I don’t think Monahan is suited to covering the point.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Does Team Canada count?

Nope, centres can't possibly play wing.

[CroFlames]

I mean since it happens "quite frequently" you should be able to find a mountain of examples of #1Cs with 500+ games at C being moved to wing.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I mean since it happens "quite frequently" you should be able to find a mountain of examples of #1Cs with 500+ games at C being moved to wing.

I didn't say centres with X amount of games were moved to wing, stop moving the goalposts. Thinking a centre cannot transition to a much easier position at wing is ridiculous. I am sure I can hunt down examples but why waste time? It is pretty damn obvious centres have no problem adjusting to wing. The guy who just won the Hart trophy last year didn't seem to have an issue.

[JohnnyO]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I will volunteer this

Anybody expecting a bunch of kids to instantly complete the maturation within just over a week of when Darryl walks in is obviously quite optimistic. There have been more days with coaches allowing bad habits to form over the past several years.

??

In 2004:
Jarome 26
Lydman 25
The Doors 23
Leopold, Regehr 23
Lombardi, Kobasew, Saprykin 21/22


2021 Flames:
Johnny, Sean, Lindholm 27/28
Bennett, Mangipane 25
Tkachuk 24
Hanifin, Andersson 24/25
Dube 23

These guys aren't kids. These are players that are playing a line higher than they should be with the exception of Johnny.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by JohnnyO

??

In 2004:
Jarome 26
Lydman 25
The Doors 23
Leopold, Regehr 23
Lombardi, Kobasew, Saprykin 21/22


2021 Flames:
Johnny, Sean, Lindholm 27/28
Bennett, Mangipane 25
Tkachuk 24
Hanifin, Andersson 24/25
Dube 23

These guys aren't kids. These are players that are playing a line higher than they should be with the exception of Johnny.

But you left out Conroy, Yelle, Gelinas, Warrener, McAmmond, Simon, Donovan ... all 28 and up

[JohnnyO]

I also left out Tanev, Gio, Backlund, Lucic, Ryan, Ritchie also all 28 and up

[SuperMatt18]

The reason you don't move Monahan to wing is because if you want to trade him this offseason then you really want the market to have it established that he's a top 6 Center.

I think people tend to always focus on what he's not instead of what he is. He's not going to be McDavid, Mackinnon, or Barzal as a guy that's going to WOW you with flashy plays

Monahan is a guy that makes the small simple plays that help your team win but maybe aren't always easy to see.

He goes to the dirty areas of the ice and finds space for a shot, he is sneaky good at separating players from pucks in the corners, and his hockey sense is underrated.

I actually think his passing at time is underrated too, but I think he doesn't try to play facilitator enough and defers to Johnny too much to be the playmaker.

Here are his 5v5 stats among centers going back to 18-19. (Disclaimer is lots of guys that aren't actually centers included here too)

Goals: 34 (32nd)
Primary Assists: 33 (23rd)
Secondary Assists: 18 (45th)
Total Assists: 51 (29th)

Individual xGF: 31.2 (16th)
Individual scoring chances for: 355 (18th)
Individual High Danger: 161 (17th)

Giveaways / Takeaway Ratio: +27 (29th)

CF%: 51.48% (65th)
xGF%: 50.8%
GF%: 50.4% (+2, 90th - Tied with Johansen, Duchene, Scheifele, Eichel)

Monahan is a guy that is a first / second line tweener that ideally would be an offensive second line center but he is being asked to be a first line offensive center because we don't have that elite #1 guy.

Also not a guy that will drive a line himself, but who if he's playing with talented wingers will generate offense and find's space on the ice to score goals.

Honestly a guy like Jeff Carter remains the best comparable for him IMO. Interestingly enough he is guy that moved to Wing at times in his career. Giroux is another guy that bounces between Center and Wing, Stamkos as well. It does seem that goalscoring centers are the types of guys that may get moved to Wing at times in their career.

Problem here is I don't think we truly have a better option to move Monahan to wing, especially with us already having enough LH shot wingers.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Monahan struggles immensely without Gaudreau, I'm shocked its being debated.

The only surprising stat Scorp posted was that Johnny does well without Monahan. I would have expected they both struggle without each other.

Looking at those numbers makes me think that Monahan is indeed broken, because it most definitely never used to break down like this for those two.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by JohnnyO

I also left out Tanev, Gio, Backlund, Lucic, Ryan, Ritchie also all 28 and up

Actually your point stands.

I looked at the average age of the playoff roster sorted by total ice time. (lots of caveats in that with injuries etc forcing players out and replacement guys in)

18 players - 26.4 average age

This season

18 players - 27.0 average age

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I didn't say centres with X amount of games were moved to wing, stop moving the goalposts. Thinking a centre cannot transition to a much easier position at wing is ridiculous. I am sure I can hunt down examples but why waste time? It is pretty damn obvious centres have no problem adjusting to wing. The guy who just won the Hart trophy last year didn't seem to have an issue.

I'm not moving any goal posts. #1Cs do not get moved to the wing, that is not a thing "high-end" coaches do that you claimed.

You'll also note I never said Monahan can't play wing. Moving him to the wing doesn't accomplish anything except leave you without your #1C.

Last year's Hart winner has played wing his whole career.

[dino7c]

The game wasn't really bad IMO

Oilers scored on like every chance they had....now it wasn't good but if Markstrom has a normal night it's a o e or two goal game. #### happens now win the next one

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

What game were you watching???

they were -4 while it mattered and they scored a consolation goal late in the third.

Same game as those who watched the whole game. I also had to deal with putting new parts into a computer to make it run faster. So, that misdirected some of the frustrations. Kinda like what Treliving was doing except I got that all sorted out . Anyway, the lineup that Sutter's got works if the team, as a whole, executes the plan to perfection. Obviously, they had huge defensive lapses in the first and last periods. The Flames controlled most of second period but Smith was hot last night. Flames could've went up 4-3 by the end of the 2nd period if it wasn't for Smith.

[SuperMatt18]

I don't really get where the "Split Up Gaudreau and Monahan" angle comes from this year. They've been fine together this year and if anything we need to find them a RW.

TOI: 346 Minutes

Corsi For: 50.3%
Expected Goals For: 52.5%

Goals For: 13
Goals Against: 9

Even more with at least one of Gaudreau or Monahan on the ice this year we have 17 Goals For, and 11 Goals Against at 5v5.

You'd hope for higher GF volume but they are trying to be more responsible defensively and so far they've been okay at it.

The problem is we have 40 GF, and 45 GA with neither of them on the ice this year.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I don't really get where the "Split Up Gaudreau and Monahan" angle comes from this year. They've been fine together this year and if anything we need to find them a RW.

TOI: 346 Minutes

Corsi For: 50.3%
Expected Goals For: 52.5%

Goals For: 13
Goals Against: 9

Even more with at least one of Gaudreau or Monahan on the ice this year we have 17 Goals For, and 11 Goals Against at 5v5.

You'd hope for higher GF volume but they are trying to be more responsible defensively and so far they've been okay at it.

The problem is we have 40 GF, and 45 GA with neither of them on the ice this year.

Also it's not like they have had much to work with on the RW. The team doesn't have time to experiment with new lines and needs to put this game behind them and look towards the next game as the score is relevant as we knew they wouldn't go undefeated for the rest of the season.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I don't really get where the "Split Up Gaudreau and Monahan" angle comes from this year. They've been fine together this year and if anything we need to find them a RW.

TOI: 346 Minutes

Corsi For: 50.3%
Expected Goals For: 52.5%

Goals For: 13
Goals Against: 9

Even more with at least one of Gaudreau or Monahan on the ice this year we have 17 Goals For, and 11 Goals Against at 5v5.

You'd hope for higher GF volume but they are trying to be more responsible defensively and so far they've been okay at it.

The problem is we have 40 GF, and 45 GA with neither of them on the ice this year.

Mony-Gaudreau are just the tempting whipping boys as we were already getting ready to trade one of them since last season seemingly and they aren't producing 1.5 ppg.

The bigger problems on this team right now:
- Backlund has been better the last 3 games, but before that was having one of his worst defensive seasons ever. That has been pretty crippling.
- Our defense is actually quite bad. Rasmus has not taken the step we all hoped, Valimaki isn't quite ready for big time and will likely never be as gaudy as he looked in Finland, and while Hanifin is solid defensively and looks better offensively he has virtually no production to show for it. Meanwhile Gio is very obviously aging into oblivion.
- Markstrom has been wildly inconsistent since injury. Probably needs to be forcibly shut down for another week to heal and get the head back on straight.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Mony-Gaudreau are just the tempting whipping boys as we were already getting ready to trade one of them since last season seemingly and they aren't producing 1.5 ppg.

The bigger problems on this team right now:
- Backlund has been better the last 3 games, but before that was having one of his worst defensive seasons ever. That has been pretty crippling.
- Our defense is actually quite bad. Rasmus has not taken the step we all hoped, Valimaki isn't quite ready for big time and will likely never be as gaudy as he looked in Finland, and while Hanifin is solid defensively and looks better offensively he has virtually no production to show for it. Meanwhile Gio is very obviously aging into oblivion.
- Markstrom has been wildly inconsistent since injury. Probably needs to be forcibly shut down for another week to heal and get the head back on straight.

Yeah outside of Hanifin-Tanev the defense is the real issue IMO.

4 pairings have played 50+ minutes this season.

Hanifin-Tanev

TOI: 455
Corsi For: 54.6%
xGF%: 62.7%
GF: 18
GA: 8

This pairing has been amazing. Elite together this year.

Giordano-Andersson

TOI: 378
Corsi For: 49.9%
xGF%: 45.9%
GF: 16
GA: 18

This pairing has been a dissapointment. Both Gio and Andersson appear to have taken a step back, and need to be sheltered.

Valimaki - Nesterov

TOI: 239
Corsi For: 52.9%
xGF%: 55.9%
GF: 8
GA: 15

These guys were a bit unlucky to be honest. A .880 save percentage is pretty tough.

Valimaki - Kylington

TOI: 55
Corsi For: 58.9%
xGF%: 54.3%
GF: 3
GA: 2

Limited minutes but overall they've looked good together.

The focus has been a lot on the forwards but the play of Giordano-Andersson has been a real problem this year- they are one of the only pairings that seems to be continually hemmed in this year.

In regards to Backlund I think he's had some horrible luck this year - every chance against ends up in the back of the net.

Corsi For: 55.5%
HDCF: 55.7%
xGF: 58.8%

Expected Goals For: 17.1
Actual Goals For : 16

Expected Goals Against: 12.0
Actual Goals Against: 21

SV Percentage: .871

That's brutal for Backlund. His underlying rates are all great still but he's -9 on actual goals against vs expected goals against. That .871 on-ice save percentage is just brutal, it's the 16th worst in the league for any player that's played over 200 minutes and IMO there is nothing he's doing that's driving that number down.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Nonsense.

He is 23 years old...far from his peak years yet.

Sutter is not here for a rebuild and ownership certainly didnt open their wallets to bring him in and oversee one.

Since coming into the NHL and among those that have played over 300 games, he is a top 35 ppg producer in the entire NHL.

This whole narrative about him being a poor skater is just so overblown as well. No he is not a fast skater at all, but he is no worse than half the NHL in that aspect ano he makes up fpr that is with his IQ and strength. His body positioning and ability to anticipate where to be, negate almost any lack of foot speed. He is very good defensively on a team that struggles being so.

MT is a pretty special layer and it behooves me how many have turned on him because he appears to be having a down season. Its like what he accomplished in his previous 300 games is the outlier and what has happened in the last 30 is the norm. It makes zero sense.

Now should he be asking for some outrageous salary on his next deal, then fine...explore dealing him. That is not an issue at this point and BT has a year and a bit to get that figured out.

You want a rebuild here? You start by keeping the young guy in MT, not by trading him.

That's just it. Isn't his QO in the $9M range? That's outrageous salary territory for MT, IMO.

MT at $6-6.5M with term, I'm thrilled. Seeing how hard the last deal was to get done, I don't see a scenario that plays out with the Flames declining the QO and negotiating a long term deal at a lower cap, but hope I'm wrong.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Mony-Gaudreau are just the tempting whipping boys as we were already getting ready to trade one of them since last season seemingly and they aren't producing 1.5 ppg.

The bigger problems on this team right now:
- Backlund has been better the last 3 games, but before that was having one of his worst defensive seasons ever. That has been pretty crippling.
- Our defense is actually quite bad. Rasmus has not taken the step we all hoped, Valimaki isn't quite ready for big time and will likely never be as gaudy as he looked in Finland, and while Hanifin is solid defensively and looks better offensively he has virtually no production to show for it. Meanwhile Gio is very obviously aging into oblivion.
- Markstrom has been wildly inconsistent since injury. Probably needs to be forcibly shut down for another week to heal and get the head back on straight.

The defence just looks very inexperienced overall. Every game one at least one of the young guys seems to make some blatantly rookie mistake. Giordano seems to not be dealing with his decline well mentally. He looks like he is getting frustrated and then makes his own major mistakes.

I can't imagine how bad things would be without Tanev.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Monahan struggles immensely without Gaudreau, I'm shocked its being debated.

The only surprising stat Scorp posted was that Johnny does well without Monahan. I would have expected they both struggle without each other.

IMO Gaudreau is better suited to playing with a center that can handle himself in his own zone.

I'm over believing that Monahan and Gaudreau can be some offensive powerhouse line. Give Gaudreau a center that can play a 200 foot game and he can be more of an opportunist offensively, while still getting points on the powerplay. As it stands now, the gaudreau line does not have the puck enough and it's one of the reasons he tries to do too much when he does have it.