[PGT] Flames lose 7-3 to Edmonton...

[TheScorpion]

I feel bad for Ryan on that line.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Don't care about Ryan or his feelings. He's a utility player.

[TheScorpion]

Yeah but the Flames have the personnel to actually ice an NHL-calibre fourth line. That's a third of the way there but it's 0-for-2 on the wings.

If they insist on Ritchie, whatever, but Nordstrom has established himself as one of the league's worst players this season. I see no downside in recalling Phillips to play against Toronto and/or keeping Leivo in the lineup.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You would like to see more from your best players but the Backlund line sunk the team last night and deserves a lot of criticism with the goaltender. You aren't going to win many games when your main checking line is playing like sieves against the opposition's top line.

Maybe Sutter is not that smart

Who the #### would put Lucic on the checking line against mcdavid

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Maybe Sutter is not that smart

Who the #### would put Lucic on the checking line against mcdavid

To be fair Lucic was playing well until last night.

[TheScorpion]

Lucic's playing style still doesn't really mesh with Backlund's at all and I think it's resulting in #17's massive increase of awful giveaways. I think Backlund's line has been operating at an okay level in spite of Lucic, honestly. It's not an optimal arrangement for either player.

Backlund is very skilled and his combination with Tkachuk has long been among the league's elite. Lucic is a workmanlike, north-south player who's at his best with centres like Ryan and Bennett. Lucic and Backlund attempting to break out of the defensive zone in tandem is a recipe for disaster... they don't play the game in sync, IMO.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Honeymoon over?

you're better than that

Bad news, it ain't a honeymoon, it's a regime change. And anyone who thought it wouldn't take time is a fool

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Yeah but the Flames have the personnel to actually ice an NHL-calibre fourth line. That's a third of the way there but it's 0-for-2 on the wings.

If they insist on Ritchie, whatever, but Nordstrom has established himself as one of the league's worst players this season. I see no downside in recalling Phillips to play against Toronto and/or keeping Leivo in the lineup.

You talk about icing a NHL cailbre 4th line, complain about proven NHL players, then suggest calling Matthew Phillips to fill out that line. Do you not see the contradiction there?

[TheScorpion]

I have zero doubt that Phillips possesses NHL-calibre skill and speed. Whether he can translate to the next level, at his size, is up for debate. There's only one way to prove it, and there is sky-high upside and play-driving ability with him.

The Flames' current depth winger options feature very little to none of that same upside. They can either choose to deploy guys who have proven to be inadequate, or they can reward somebody who has earned a chance with his fantastic play.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Maybe Sutter is not that smart

Who the #### would put Lucic on the checking line against mcdavid

Who do you suggest? Tkachuk is the same type of player as Lucic - slow, a digger and not a defensive guys. Bennett, same, only a little faster.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

To be fair Lucic was playing well until last night.

Including the previous game, when they shut him down.

Aside from a brutal giveaway (which Backlund, Johnny, Tkachuk and Andersson also did), I didn’t see any real problems with Lucic against McDavid. It’s normally the D that carry the main load against McDavid, at least until they gain the zone, and in the zone, Lucic is OK.

[Looch City]

Flames proving to us why we shouldn't getting excited about this season...Sutter's got a lot of work to do.

Oh well, Red Mile 2022 here I come!

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Is he a top center in your mind?

He didn't say he's not a top center, he said he's not an NHL center.

[CroFlames]

If I was coach, I'd immediately move on. Sometimes there are games where no matter what you try, it just won't go in the net and you begin to get frustrated and discouraged. That frustration leads to mistakes in your own end, and all of a sudden it feels like every shot is going in your net.

Frankly I don't think the Flames played bad until it started to fall apart around goal #5.

Burn tape, have a joke, move on.

If the same thing happens v Toronto, then you look to make some changes.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

He didn't say he's not a top center, he said he's not an NHL center.

Sean Monahan doesn't have the versatility in his game to be an effective play-driving NHL centre right now. He is a pure shooter who is extraordinarily good at what he does. But his overall game is sorely lacking and his transitional play is basically non-existent.

I think they need to shelter him on the wing and, potentially, search for a trade partner. Where do you play him if he's not with Gaudreau? His game impacts plummet dramatically whenever he's slotted anywhere else. To his credit, he has good synergy with Gaudreau but it's also very concerning how teams feast on the Flames whenever Monahan is by himself — and how the Flames instantly become significantly more likely to score whenever Gaudreau plays with a different centre.

In the 253 minutes Monahan has played at 5v5 without Gaudreau since the start of 2018-19, the Flames have been outscored 20 to 6. When Johnny has played without Monahan, the Flames have outscored their opponents 19 to 16.

When Monahan has played without Gaudreau, the Flames have generated a meagre 43.68% of the expected goals. When Gaudreau plays with Monahan, the Flames generate 51.56% of them. When Gaudreau is moved away from Monahan, that figure rises to 56.13%. (These figures are all from Natural Stat Trick).

Monahan's transitional game barely exists. In 2019-20, he averaged just 6.04 individual controlled zone entries per 60 minutes, the second-worst mark of any Flames forward, the worst of any centre, and near the bottom of the league. During his zone entries, Monahan only carried the puck into the offensive zone 42% of the time, the second-worst mark on the Flames. He averaged the fourth-fewest shot assists (passes that led to shots) from the neutral or defensive zones of any Flames forward, only ahead of Bennett, Rieder, and Dube. He is not the catalyst for up-tempo transitional play that leads to offense.

Monahan does not consistently forecheck and he infrequently makes effective passes. In 2019-20, he ranked solidly below-average in Corey Sznajder's publicly accessible forecheck puck recovery and goal-line pass data. Monahan also ranks second-worst on the Flames—and far below the league average—for low-to-high passes (finding his defensemen with passes to the point). Players like Bennett, Dube, Tkachuk, and Lucic thrive at retrieving the puck. Gaudreau is among the league's elite at finding players with dangerous passes in the offensive zone. Monahan fulfils neither of these expectations on a consistent basis.

Monahan is very talented at finding open space and being the beneficiary of great passes enabled by effective puck retrieval. But he seldom starts plays in transition, he does not retrieve pucks, he does little to enable shots by other players, and (this year) he has not scored very often at even strength.

I try hard to like Sean Monahan and he has had good seasons in the past, but this year and last have been extremely difficult for him and I think a switch to the wing is necessary to take some of these burdens off him. I've even said as recently as this past off-season that Monahan is underrated by some and I still think it's true to an extent—he still absolutely has the pure talent to be a consistent 30-goal scorer in this league if he's utilized properly, and I definitely think he's a top-six producer. But he is not performing effectively right now. And I've recently come to the conclusion that I think he would be far better suited on the wing.

[CSharp]

There's nothing like building up an inherited slow computer and watching the team fall apart while you're screaming and shouting. Not sure which one is more frustrating. Has Sutter been fired yet? Man, this team is a coach and goalie killer!

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Honeymoon over?

LOL, it’s one game.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Lucic's playing style still doesn't really mesh with Backlund's at all and I think it's resulting in #17's massive increase of awful giveaways. I think Backlund's line has been operating at an okay level in spite of Lucic, honestly. It's not an optimal arrangement for either player.

Backlund is very skilled and his combination with Tkachuk has long been among the league's elite. Lucic is a workmanlike, north-south player who's at his best with centres like Ryan and Bennett. Lucic and Backlund attempting to break out of the defensive zone in tandem is a recipe for disaster... they don't play the game in sync, IMO.

OK, let's not bring out the B-word. There's an all encompassing mega thread for that. Looch and everyone was miserable last night. At least that line scored and broke Smith's goose egg in the third. Special Needs 2 actually did his usual stupid penalty - again. Not surprised he and everyone was as usual last night. At least the Flames weren't as bad as the Phillies were against the Rangers! Tre needs to get off his high horse and get his arse moving before the trade deadline. This team ain't goin' nowhere just yet, even with the best coach and the best goalie cuz they killin'em!

[Hanna Sniper]

Whenever Monahan and Gaudreau have slumped in the past and split up, Monahan has always played well. In fact he has did great. He has always been placed back with Gaudreau directly afterwards to get Gaudreau going

To say Monahan need Gaudreau is just ignoring what has happened in the past when both players have been placed on different lines

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Honeymoon over?

This is the Flames 6th wife in 5 years...it's only the first stage of the honeymoon. I happened to catch Ground Hog day last night after the game on a free preview - kinda fitting...

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I have zero doubt that Phillips possesses NHL-calibre skill and speed. Whether he can translate to the next level, at his size, is up for debate. There's only one way to prove it, and there is sky-high upside and play-driving ability with him.

I have zero doubt Phillips lacks NHL size. I am also very skeptical his skill translates to the NHL. If he were NHL talent he would be in the NHL and the team would not have loaded up on known quantities, as limited as they were. They would have rolled the dice on Phillips, Gawdin, and Ruzicka. Obviously the team does not see the upside in bringing in a tiny player on a team that is already small by NHL standards. You can gush all over his play in a very limited AHL season, but that does not mean he is prepared or capable of playing in the NHL. The jump between the AHL and NHL is so great it is hard for people to comprehend.

The Flames' current depth winger options feature very little to none of that same upside. They can either choose to deploy guys who have proven to be inadequate, or they can reward somebody who has earned a chance with his fantastic play.

If he's earned his chance he will get his chance. Obviously the Flames don't believe he's earned anything, or he would be with the team. People just don't appreciate the importance of size in the professional game.