Flames fire Geoff Ward, hire Darryl Sutter, signs 3 year deal

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

There is lots of discussion about whether we are currently seeing a new coach bump, or if Sutter is making a tangible difference (it's the latter, if you're scoring at home).

Looking at Ward's record: starts with a 7 game winning streak (without doing anything differently), then is mediocre for a season and a half. That is the definition of a new coach bump.

As for the Wpg series, I give him little - the Flames were the better team before 2 of their best players got hurt.

What do the last 6 years show us? Wild inconsistency, but always better in year 1 with a coach than year 2. It seems that cycle was drastically sped up this time with Ward.

I think and I hope it has more to do with Sutter himself, but history shows that 'new coach bump' is probably a decent portion of this.

[tvp2003]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1372269004434325505

Darryl's presser from today. He talks a bit about how to "play fast". Also mentions the importance of veteran leadership from guys like Tanev and Ryan, in addition to Gio, Backlund and Lucic whom he knew previously.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

What do the last 6 years show us? Wild inconsistency, but always better in year 1 with a coach than year 2. It seems that cycle was drastically sped up this time with Ward.

I think and I hope it has more to do with Sutter himself, but history shows that 'new coach bump' is probably a decent portion of this.

Instead of looking at Flames history, look at Sutter’s. His teams tend to get better and better (to a point obviously).

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Instead of looking at Flames history, look at Sutter’s. His teams tend to get better and better (to a point obviously).

I think it is most informative to look at both, and then to ask: which trend will win out? I sure do hope that Sutter's history is the one that comes out on top for this group.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[Kasi]

Yeah it’s way too early to say Sutter has solved the players issues. After all Peters did get them to number one in the West. This team has shown they can be very good over a full season but we’ll see if Sutter can beat that. I think the main difference between the two is Sutter is the superior in game adjustor (instead of just line blending) so I hope that keeps the players confidence and make these adjustments permanent.

[FBI]

I love Sutter pumping Mcdavid's tires.. Mcdavid is the best rah rah rah unstoppable, meanwhile we'll just take the little ole win

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

What do the last 6 years show us? Wild inconsistency, but always better in year 1 with a coach than year 2.

You cut off at six years ago, considering that would be Hartley's 3rd and 4th season, it doesn't quite fit the narrative. Even if you want to call that his first and second years, the team'a underlying numbers improved, but their shooting percentage regressed (to a still solid level) and their save percentage was league-worst.

The Gulutzan team is also a weird outlier. Their analytics were absolutely better in his second year here, but a combination of things (notable injuries, shooting luck, off-ice circumstances) saw that team lose games it probably deserved to win.

The Peters team certainly got worse in his second year, sure. The "why" for that is debatable though. Small sample size, system changes, losing confidence in the coach after Bednar exploited his systems... I dunno, but I will agree that this fits your narrative with the caveat that Peters getting fired for reasons unrelated to the product on-ice throws a wrench in it.

Ward's team was mediocre at best under Ward in both years. He never got them performing at a high level in either year, and his hot start record was a mirage.

[Boreal]

Better questions better responses from Sutter.

Danny Austin is great.

I think Darryl has a better ability to watch and interpret the game to give players insight into their play in real-time as opposed to Ward.

I think Geoff is great as an assistant to breakdown games before and after to support a coach, or strategize a power-play, but his in-game skills obviously limited him.

Maybe Darryl is better at seeing things in real time because he played.

He is coaching the players to read and react, rather than read, think, and then react. As coaches there are subtle nuanced things they are telling the players, or “cleaning up” as Darryl said, before during and after games. They’re trying to get the players to subconsciously make decisions on the ice and process conscious thought on the bench.

The level of detail the game is played and coached at now is incredibly sophisticated. Coaches and players are looking for any advantage to exploit the opposition. Darryl sees tendencies and habits in the game that not only does he convey to the players, but he also conveys to the other coaches to speak the same language with the same message.

Things like... “cut to center or wide on this/that dman because he’s weak on his backhand or sloppy turning left/right.” I believe the level of detail they are looking at is both remarkably simple with an insane level of detail.

It’s going to be interesting seeing how Darryl utilizes the series of games against one opponent.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

Darryl's presser from today. He talks a bit about how to "play fast". Also mentions the importance of veteran leadership from guys like Tanev and Ryan, in addition to Gio, Backlund and Lucic whom he knew previously.

Pretty sobering opinion on Valimaki. He has a lot of potential, but he has work to do. That year off set him back more than I hoped, but as much as expected. My personal opinion is that he thinks the game well, but he isn't physically there. He will probably be one of those defensemen that doesn't peak until he is 27 or 28. Normal progression, but I think original expectations were higher than normal.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Boreal

Better questions better responses from Sutter.

Danny Austin is great.

I think Darryl has a better ability to watch and interpret the game to give players insight into their play in real-time as opposed to Ward.

I think Geoff is great as an assistant to breakdown games before and after to support a coach, or strategize a power-play, but his in-game skills obviously limited him.

Maybe Darryl is better at seeing things in real time because he played.

He is coaching the players to read and react, rather than read, think, and then react. As coaches there are subtle nuanced things they are telling the players, or “cleaning up” as Darryl said, before during and after games. They’re trying to get the players to subconsciously make decisions on the ice and process conscious thought on the bench.

The level of detail the game is played and coached at now is incredibly sophisticated. Coaches and players are looking for any advantage to exploit the opposition. Darryl sees tendencies and habits in the game that not only does he convey to the players, but he also conveys to the other coaches to speak the same language with the same message.

Things like... “cut to center or wide on this/that dman because he’s weak on his backhand or sloppy turning left/right.” I believe the level of detail they are looking at is both remarkably simple with an insane level of detail.

It’s going to be interesting seeing how Darryl utilizes the series of games against one opponent.

I think the thing that makes Darryl a good coach is that he wasn't the biggest or most skilled player, but he found a way to become a productive player by working hard and being smart. He doesn't ask the players to do anything that he didn't do and I think they appreciate the authenticity.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I think the thing that makes Darryl a good coach is that he wasn't the biggest or most skilled player, but he found a way to become a productive player by working hard and being smart. He doesn't ask the players to do anything that he didn't do and I think they appreciate the authenticity.

Yeah 100%. It’s obvious his methods have a shelf life, and I think he knows this.

I think that it is his messaging and detailed analysis about what players need to do is what has a shelf life.

Eventually a player after hearing the same thing over & over & over again becomes like: “Yeah I know I need to; have better gap control, backcheck more awareness, get behind their D on the forecheck etc. etc.”

It’s much like parenting, only parents can’t get fired (but if they do get fired they probably go to jail).

Same as parents nagging kids:
“Yeah I know I need to brush my teeth/make my bed/clean my room.”

Some professionals are receptive to constructive feedback and criticism more than others. Even with these people they are still subject to the law of diminishing returns.

Others either aren’t as receptive, can’t execute the adjustments he is informing/requesting of them, and/or they can’t be moved off the roster.

Ultimately the professionalism of this team will shine through... or not.

He obviously believes this team has the ability to execute at a higher level with better or different coaching or he wouldn’t have taken the position.

[sa226]

Maybe they should just look into a 3 year on, 4 year off contract for Darryl. When he gets stale with this group, send him back to the farm, rebuild through the draft, find a teaching type coach who inevitably can't take the team to the next level, fire him, hire Darryl to take a run at the cup.

Rinse and repeat.

[Flamescuprun2018]

Quite interesting comment that was right on the mark by Sutter tonite at his 7-3 Oiler loss presser. Sums up what is wrong with this team.

When asked how does this team compare to 2004?

He said quite clearly that this team is more skilled than that team but not as mature. The buy in was easier in 04 because of the maturity of their core group.

He admitted he still has lots of work to do. The sooner that this team realizes that the only way they will succeed against more skilled players/teams (ie. Oiler stars) is to play Sutter style hockey (hard forecheck, no turnovers, no dumb penalties). Do they have the maturity to realize it?

Also really liked his explanation for why he does not pull goalies if a bad game. Its like benching them which he prefers not to do. Wants them to battle through it.

[Erick Estrada]

IMO it comes down to how the goaltender feels as some may want to get extra rest on a night that they and the team don't have their best stuff and some maybe just don't want to give up the net under any circumstances. I do fee that a mercy pull is the way to go when the team in front of the goaltender is having a really bad night as there's no reason for your starting goaltender to face extra rubber in a bad game that's over early.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flamescuprun2018

Quite interesting comment that was right on the mark by Sutter tonite at his 7-3 Oiler loss presser. Sums up what is wrong with this team.

When asked how does this team compare to 2004?

He said quite clearly that this team is more skilled than that team but not as mature. The buy in was easier in 04 because of the maturity of their core group.

He admitted he still has lots of work to do. The sooner that this team realizes that the only way they will succeed against more skilled players/teams (ie. Oiler stars) is to play Sutter style hockey (hard forecheck, no turnovers, no dumb penalties). Do they have the maturity to realize it?

Also really liked his explanation for why he does not pull goalies if a bad game. Its like benching them which he prefers not to do. Wants them to battle through it.

Pretty much every guy who screwed up was out for the next shift.

It's going to be an interesting reaction - does Darryl pound them or is he going to pull the "hard after a win, softer after a loss" tactic.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by sa226

Maybe they should just look into a 3 year on, 4 year off contract for Darryl. When he gets stale with this group, send him back to the farm, rebuild through the draft, find a teaching type coach who inevitably can't take the team to the next level, fire him, hire Darryl to take a run at the cup.

Rinse and repeat.

He will have to get a prodding mechanism on his wheelchair.

[activeStick]

I can understand Sutter's reasoning for not pulling the goaltender and the need for the goalie to battle through adversity, just like the rest of the team. I guess he thinks that's more valuable than any potential momentum swings from making a goalie change in-game.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Flamescuprun2018

Quite interesting comment that was right on the mark by Sutter tonite at his 7-3 Oiler loss presser. Sums up what is wrong with this team.

When asked how does this team compare to 2004?

He said quite clearly that this team is more skilled than that team but not as mature. The buy in was easier in 04 because of the maturity of their core group.

He admitted he still has lots of work to do. The sooner that this team realizes that the only way they will succeed against more skilled players/teams (ie. Oiler stars) is to play Sutter style hockey (hard forecheck, no turnovers, no dumb penalties). Do they have the maturity to realize it?

Also really liked his explanation for why he does not pull goalies if a bad game. Its like benching them which he prefers not to do. Wants them to battle through it.

Lot of truth in this. I’ve felt this way for a while. This team’s identity is more skilled then they are anything else. Yet, they’re being asked to play a hard checking game which I’m not sure suits them. So their work ethic and being hard on pucks is going to always questionable at times. The other problem is they’re not even that skilled either so they can’t rely solely on their skill like Edmonton, Winnipeg and Toronto.

Conversely, Darryl’s team in 2004 knew they weren’t very skilled at all. There were no egos there. They knew they had to put the work boots on and check hard every night if they wanted to win.

This is ultimately just a poorly constructed roster and a confusing collection of players that resembles a team.

[EVERLAST]

Sutter philosophy of not pulling goalies is perfect.

Yes. They are all in that together and I for one hope both Markstrom and Rittich peel the paint off the walls and tell it like it is to their teammates.

They both are excellent goalies who know who's working out there and who isn't.

I love how he added .....ive great had some darn good goalies too.

[dino7c]

Some people act like the 04 team never lost a game...they were a bubble team that went on a run but a couple bounces and it goes nowhere.