Cameron documentary claims to have found Jesus' Tomb. Oh, and dead body too...

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

I think some Christians would argue that believing in evolution means that one isn't taking the Bible 100% literally in the stories of creation or the flood, and therefore aren't "real" Christians (whatever that means).

So maybe it's more believing in evolution discounts the 100% literal interpretation of the Bible and 100% interpretation discounts evolution?

Well, those are the true idiots to be sure.

I think it goes far deeper than that on both sides.

Scientists, or even those who believe in ONLY science, aren't unintelligent enough to assume that the bible was meant to be interpreted literally. Christians in general should be smarter than that too, but too many of them believe what the Billy Grahams and Pat Roberstsons of the world say.

Personally, I've always found it rather simple to reconcile the two. That's not to say I believe in God or that I believe that we are direct descendants of apes, but more that I'm not smart enough as a human being to be convinced that we have all the answers or could understand them if we did.

[Sample00]

dang, where's Cheese when ya need him?

either way this will make for some interesting television.

[photon]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Part of the problem many Christians have is trying to take what was written in a way people could understand 2000 years ago, and apply it to today. ... Knowledge keeps moving forward and with it so does language, but the Bible has basically remain untouched for 2000 years.

Agreed.. some groups seem to be perfectly fine with taking that into account and studying the Bible in the light of our raised consciousness. Everyone now knows slavery is wrong for example, so most churches aren't going to teach that. But others refuse to look at it that way.

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

That's not to say I believe in God or that I believe that we are direct descendants of apes, but more that I'm not smart enough as a human being to be convinced that we have all the answers or could understand them if we did.

Agreed, though I've often heard the "science doesn't have all the answers" argument used to discount science entirely, which isn't right. Dogma presumes it's 100% right, while science presumes only that we have a good theory that best explains observations and makes accurate predictions. It adjusts itself over time.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

Agreed, though I've often heard the "science doesn't have all the answers" argument used to discount science entirely, which isn't right. Dogma presumes it's 100% right, while science presumes only that we have a good theory that best explains observations and makes accurate predictions. It adjusts itself over time.

Right, I agree completely.

Any good scientist would tell you that science does not have all the answers. That's what people have to remember. Science can't explain everything. You don't have to believe in something that isn't scientifically proven (a scientific oxymoron btw..but it makes the point), but it is foolhardy to discount its possibility if it can't be disproven through science.

Additionally, science is only as intelligent as those who practice it. In my opinion that puts a limitation on its ability to comprehend everything...at least at a ceratin point in time.

[flames85]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Part of the problem many Christians have is trying to take what was written in a way people could understand 2000 years ago, and apply it to today. I mean, Noah didn't live for 900 years. We know that. So what would people 2000 years ago have figured 900 years to be? 900 moon cycles? 900 seasons? The same can be applied to many aspects of the Bible. THere just isn't a whole heck of a lot you can take literally when it comes to things written 2000 years ago. You have to factor in the lack of language of the time, in addition to human error. I mean really, if you had told people 2000 years ago there were such things as dinosaurs, what do you think their response would be? How long ago was it that the earth was flat? Knowledge keeps moving forward and with it so does language, but the Bible has basically remain untouched for 2000 years.

it's the job of men of god to translate meanings from the bible into today's society so people understand. of course things have changed but message remains the same.

[flames85]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Well, those are the true idiots to be sure.

I think it goes far deeper than that on both sides.

Scientists, or even those who believe in ONLY science, aren't unintelligent enough to assume that the bible was meant to be interpreted literally. Christians in general should be smarter than that too, but too many of them believe what the Billy Grahams and Pat Roberstsons of the world say.

Personally, I've always found it rather simple to reconcile the two. That's not to say I believe in God or that I believe that we are direct descendants of apes, but more that I'm not smart enough as a human being to be convinced that we have all the answers or could understand them if we did.

calling someone an idiot because of their beliefs is wrong.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by flames85

it's the job of men of god to translate meanings from the bible into today's society so people understand. of course things have changed but message remains the same.

So only men of God are qualified to interpret His words?

I don't have the ability to read the bible and apply it to my life?

How do I know which 'Man of God' is real and which are just in it for the cash. Believe me, it's a lucrative business.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by flames85

calling someone an idiot because of their beliefs is wrong.

I didn't call anyone an idiot because of their beliefs. I called people who interpret the bible literally idiots.

You said only "men of God" are able to interpret His words so obviously you agree.

That said, I disagree with your statement.

The Reverend Fred Phelps (one of your Men of God) believes that US soldiers are being killed because American society is tolerant of homosexuality. Phelps is an idiot.

[photon]

Originally Posted by flames85

calling someone an idiot because of their beliefs is wrong.

What about someone who believes in Zeus? Or believes in fairies? Pat Robertson believes he can leg press 2000 lbs, and believes he isn't a false prophet even though his prophecies are constantly wrong.

Belief is not "carte blanche" to suspend reason...

[flames85]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

So only men of God are qualified to interpret His words?

I don't have the ability to read the bible and apply it to my life?

How do I know which 'Man of God' is real and which are just in it for the cash. Believe me, it's a lucrative business.

i didn't say "only" men of god are qualified, i said " its the job of men of god"

everyone has the ability to read the bible and apply it to their life, at different levels, just like everything else. thats why they have bible studies to help those who don't understand or don't believe.

i agree with you that there are guys out there that are just in it for the money, but you will know a true man of god when you meet one... it's a simple as that.

[flames85]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I didn't call anyone an idiot because of their beliefs. I called people who interpret the bible literally idiots.


The Reverend Fred Phelps (one of your Men of God) believes that US soldiers are being killed because American society is tolerant of homosexuality. Phelps is an idiot.

these are your opinions. i don't remeber stating that Reverend Fred Phelps was one of my men of god....so i don't know where you get off on that? and i also believe any society that is tolerant of homosexuality will be punished... but thats my beliefs, and you calling anyone an idiot for that makes you the real idiot!

[flames85]

Originally Posted by photon

What about someone who believes in Zeus? Or believes in fairies? Pat Robertson believes he can leg press 2000 lbs, and believes he isn't a false prophet even though his prophecies are constantly wrong.

Belief is not "carte blanche" to suspend reason...

but stating someone is an idiot because they believe in zeus or God or whoever is strictly your opinion, they could say the same about you regarding what you believe. in that case everyone is an idiot.

[photon]

Originally Posted by flames85

but stating someone is an idiot because they believe in zeus or God or whoever is strictly your opinion, they could say the same about you regarding what you believe. in that case everyone is an idiot.

Ah, now we have the true beginnings of wisdom.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by flames85

and i also believe any society that is tolerant of homosexuality will be punished... but thats my beliefs

I assume you are christian. So what are the reasons behind christians not likeing homosexuals?

[photon]

Originally Posted by flames85

these are your opinions. i don't remeber stating that Reverend Fred Phelps was one of my men of god....so i don't know where you get off on that?

This is one thing that confuses me, you're saying that Reverend Phelps might not be one of your men of God? How do you decide that, how and why is it different from others who decide that he is a man of God?

[flames85]

its not about likeing homosexuals, it's that it's not right. it's not right because the Bible states that. "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. [NIV Leviticus 18:22]" , there are probably other ways that state why it is wrong but i am not the most educated person, you would be better to contact a Minister.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by photon

It's only moving the goalposts if it's a single person/group doing it.

There's lots of people who say there's compelling evidence for a historical Jesus and lots who say there isn't, all of whom have put FAR more time then I ever could into the research. So it's difficult to know which is "correct" and not just believe what I'm biased to believe.

I don't see why historical evidence couldn't exist to prove that Jesus existed.

But you're not looking for that evidence, you want to know whether or not Jesus is who the Bible attests he is. Which is a fair point.

There will never be proof for that though. "Through faith..."

[flames85]

Originally Posted by photon

This is one thing that confuses me, you're saying that Reverend Phelps might not be one of your men of God? How do you decide that, how and why is it different from others who decide that he is a man of God?

I didn't state anything about Reverend Phelps, to tell you the truth i don't even know who he is. I haven't made a judgement myself if i believe he is a man of God or not. and as i stated before you will know when you meet a true man of God. like someone stated earlier, Beliefs are bases on Faith. and my faith is that the Bible is Fact.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by flames85

it's the job of men of god to translate meanings from the bible into today's society so people understand. of course things have changed but message remains the same.

And what I'm saying is that they aren't doing their job. If you have people that think that Noah really was 900 and that the earth is really only 6000 years old, clearly they aren't doing their job. Clearly there is a disconnect between people being taught the Bible is literal and those who are just taught the meaning of the stories.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Burninator

I assume you are christian. So what are the reasons behind christians not likeing homosexuals?

You'll probably find some of your answers in Sodom and Gomorrah (hence Sodomy) and that it's not being homosexual but the practice of sodomy.

Photon, you mentioned something interesting to me. The 100% literal truth of the bible. I had a conversation with a Southern Baptist on my way home from Texas a couple of weeks ago. I asked her about her thoughts on the bible, if it was the words on the page or the meaning behind them. She said to me that translating between languages is like a science now (pure fallacy) and that it was the words on the page, that interpretation leads to the wrong path (her examples were Mormonism and Jehovas Witness). I couldn't believe it.

How there are people who believe that the words in the NIV version of the bible are to be taken literally is preposterous to me. Translation between English and French loses meaning, let alone Greek, Hebrew, verbal accounts, etc.. not to mention creative liberty. However, this doesn't mean that Christianity is wrong, just in some cases.. misguided.