Flames fire Geoff Ward, hire Darryl Sutter, signs 3 year deal

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by MrMike

https://thewincolumn.ca/2021/03/14/f...darryl-sutter/

Great article about the Flames adjusted system under Darryl Sutter.

Exactly right, IMO.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

It's only two games
It's only two games
It's only two games


I have to keep telling myself this, but what an amazing difference we're seeing on the ice in JUST TWO GAMES.

Is it some sort of dead cat/new coach bounce? Or can such instant and measurable results mean that we're possibly just seeing the tip of the ice berg here?

If they were playing the same way they were before, just with more energy, I would consider it a new coach bump. And while there is no doubt some of that, the important thing, IMO, is that they are playing a better way. It isn't just energy, it's better hockey. So plenty of reason for continued hope and optimism, IMO.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

If they were playing the same way they were before, just with more energy, I would consider it a new coach bump. And while there is no doubt some of that, the important thing, IMO, is that they are playing a better way. It isn't just energy, it's better hockey. So plenty of reason for continued hope and optimism, IMO.

Their changes are about 90% execution and energy IMO. The breakout looks pretty much the same, only faster, which has opened up their options. The biggest change is a full dump and chase used way more often.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Their changes are about 90% execution and energy IMO. The breakout looks pretty much the same, only faster, which has opened up their options. The biggest change is a full dump and chase used way more often.

But that's everything.

The whole point of the way they are playing is to move from zone to zone faster, putting pressure on the other team. Dismissing it as the same, only faster kind of misses the point, IMO.

Dump and chase as the biggest change? Not IMO. The biggest change is the D immediately going north, as opposed to the D to D, wait or everyone to get in place, strategy. The biggest change is playing faster. The dump and chase, when they don't have numbers, is just one aspect of that strategy.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

But that's everything.

The whole point of the way they are playing is to move from zone to zone faster, putting pressure on the other team. Dismissing it as the same, only faster kind of misses the point, IMO.

Dump and chase as the biggest change? Not IMO. The biggest change is the D immediately going north, as opposed to the D to D, wait or everyone to get in place, strategy. The biggest change is playing faster. The dump and chase, when they don't have numbers, is just one aspect of that strategy.

I agree they are moving north more quickly. What I’m saying is that they weren’t coached not to do that under Ward. No coach says “head up ice slowly”. They were just not made to move it quickly. So it’s not a change of system, it’s a change of effort, emphasis and execution, IMO. I don’t know if they are scared of Sutter, just more impressed, or whether he has convinced them in some other way, or (hopefully not) temporarily just taking a new coach’s instructions more to heart. Maybe he noticed their gaps on breakout were too far to do the correct thing, but on paper, it’s not a change. In practice it is.

The dump and chase is, in contrast, a change of system. And, ironically, one that people accused Ward of advocating, when what was actually happening was Gaudreau would try to carry, get trapped, and end up with a weak dump with no support, because dumping wasn’t the plan.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I agree they are moving north more quickly. What I’m saying is that they weren’t coached not to do that under Ward. No coach says “head up ice slowly”. They were just not made to move it quickly. So it’s not a change of system, it’s a change of effort, emphasis and execution, IMO. I don’t know if they are scared of Sutter, just more impressed, or whether he has convinced them in some other way, or (hopefully not) temporarily just taking a new coach’s instructions more to heart. Maybe he noticed their gaps on breakout were too far to do the correct thing, but on paper, it’s not a change. In practice it is.

The dump and chase is, in contrast, a change of system. And, ironically, one that people accused Ward of advocating, when what was actually happening was Gaudreau would try to carry, get trapped, and end up with a weak dump with no support, because dumping wasn’t the plan.

We don’t know what they were coached. Some coaches preach attacking as a five man unit which implies taking time to get organized. If in fact he was teaching to go up ice quickly without waiting for the other players and the players weren’t doing it then he also failed for not being able to motivate players.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by edslunch

We don’t know what they were coached. Some coaches preach attacking as a five man unit which implies taking time to get organized. If in fact he was teaching to go up ice quickly without waiting for the other players and the players weren’t doing it then he also failed for not being able to motivate players.

Yes. I said before, many times, that either way he was not getting the job done.

That said, even the “5 man unit” guys coach moving up quickly. No one says “please wait for the D to get ready”.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

It's only two games
It's only two games
It's only two games


I have to keep telling myself this, but what an amazing difference we're seeing on the ice in JUST TWO GAMES.

Is it some sort of dead cat/new coach bounce? Or can such instant and measurable results mean that we're possibly just seeing the tip of the ice berg here?

I'm holding back judgment until we see them play a couple more teams. However, on paper, this team has all the right pieces to at least dominate the North.

They acquired a vezina level goalie. The defence has crazy depth. 4 potential ppg forwards. A bunch more .5ppg forwards.

I could not believe how totally lacking in life this team had been up until now.

[mikeecho]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Their changes are about 90% execution and energy IMO. The breakout looks pretty much the same, only faster, which has opened up their options. The biggest change is a full dump and chase used way more often.

I’ve found this breakdown to be very insightful.

https://twitter.com/jhanhky/status/1...803250689?s=21

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by mikeecho

I’ve found this breakdown to be very insightful.

https://twitter.com/jhanhky/status/1...803250689?s=21

It’s a good breakdown. It doesn’t really change the overall point unless he’s pointing out differences between before and after. He is ultimately correct in his last tweet. Any system is going to succeed or fail based on work rate and execution, which IMO is Sutter’s real strength.

I think the differences of opinion here aren’t as big as they’re made out to be. The thing is though, that the “systems” posters are convinced that there was nothing wrong with the players that a change of system wouldn’t suddenly unlock. Whereas I think they needed someone to convince them to buy in. And I still have some doubts on the overall makeup when POs come. But they have done a fair bit to convince me they can go further than I hoped.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by blankall

I'm holding back judgment until we see them play a couple more teams. However, on paper, this team has all the right pieces to at least dominate the North.

They acquired a vezina level goalie. The defence has crazy depth. 4 potential ppg forwards. A bunch more .5ppg forwards.

I could not believe how totally lacking in life this team had been up until now.

Yeah, I thought for a long time that this team was better than they were showing, but they'd beaten pretty much all the optimism out of me about 10 games into this season.

I'm hesitant to jump back on the optimism train, lest they take another gigantic deuce upon my noggin.

[SOMBRI2]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

If they were playing the same way they were before, just with more energy, I would consider it a new coach bump. And while there is no doubt some of that, the important thing, IMO, is that they are playing a better way. It isn't just energy, it's better hockey. So plenty of reason for continued hope and optimism, IMO.

agreed. my 2 cents is, the game versus edmonton, they used a lot of hard energy (including two fights) + emotion and have drained the team by the 3rd period rolled around...then another listless two periods versus ottawa before they started pushing.

in the last two versus montreal, how they use their physicality is a lot more better, they are not running around like headless chickens, they are a lot more cohesive while getting the results, forcing turnovers, forcing mistakes, getting the forecheck going without needs highlight reel bodychecks.

again, if they lost both to montreal, i would have been still a lot happier and satisfied because the team played a lot smarter, not just harder.

[SuperMatt18]

I don’t know if it counts as system or style but the biggest thing is pace and aggression.

Everything was so passive under Ward and I honestly think that had to be coached. Passive in the d-zone, didn’t pressure the other team in the neutral zone at all, and their forecheck was slow too.

Now everything is about pace and pressure.

You don’t go from averaging 32 shots against per game to around 20 by just playing harder all of a sudden, there are actual structural things they are doing different here.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Yeah, I thought for a long time that this team was better than they were showing, but they'd beaten pretty much all the optimism out of me about 10 games into this season.

I'm hesitant to jump back on the optimism train, lest they take another gigantic deuce upon my noggin.

On paper the team checks most boxes. Their forward depth is good, defensive depth is good, goalie is elite. On paper, they're easily as good as any North division team other than maybe the Leafs because of their high-end talent. That is the one area where I think the team lacks.

I'm interested to see if Daryl can actually get them playing consistent hockey for an extended period of time. He's definitely given a lot more hope which was desperately needed.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I agree they are moving north more quickly. What I’m saying is that they weren’t coached not to do that under Ward. No coach says “head up ice slowly”. They were just not made to move it quickly. So it’s not a change of system, it’s a change of effort, emphasis and execution, IMO. I don’t know if they are scared of Sutter, just more impressed, or whether he has convinced them in some other way, or (hopefully not) temporarily just taking a new coach’s instructions more to heart. Maybe he noticed their gaps on breakout were too far to do the correct thing, but on paper, it’s not a change. In practice it is.

The dump and chase is, in contrast, a change of system. And, ironically, one that people accused Ward of advocating, when what was actually happening was Gaudreau would try to carry, get trapped, and end up with a weak dump with no support, because dumping wasn’t the plan.

Honest question, is Geoff Ward your uncle or something?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

Honest question, is Geoff Ward your uncle or something?

LOL - you say that’s an “honest question”? That says a lot about you. OK, honest answer: No. First, he’s one year older than me. Second, I’d be a crappy nephew since I called for Ward to be fired. Just not because of “systems”.

Honest question - can you think critically at all? I criticized particular things people were saying which I don’t think are correct. People debate them, and that’s fine. But all you can say is “is he your uncle”? Well done.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I agree they are moving north more quickly. What I’m saying is that they weren’t coached not to do that under Ward. No coach says “head up ice slowly”. They were just not made to move it quickly. So it’s not a change of system, it’s a change of effort, emphasis and execution, IMO. I don’t know if they are scared of Sutter, just more impressed, or whether he has convinced them in some other way, or (hopefully not) temporarily just taking a new coach’s instructions more to heart. Maybe he noticed their gaps on breakout were too far to do the correct thing, but on paper, it’s not a change. In practice it is.

The dump and chase is, in contrast, a change of system. And, ironically, one that people accused Ward of advocating, when what was actually happening was Gaudreau would try to carry, get trapped, and end up with a weak dump with no support, because dumping wasn’t the plan.

Agreed.

The amount of confirmation bias here is staggering. I get that new ultimate shiny toy in Darryl Sutter has arrived, but to say that the last 2 games of quicker breakouts means Ward was definitely teaching a “slower” brand of hockey is ridiculous. During Geoff Ward’s 7 game win streak last season, was he teaching a faster brand of hockey then Bill Peters?

I still don’t know how a coach can even teach slower breakouts. Right before a breakout occurs, the team is in their structure defending. Players have no idea if the outlet will occur along the boards, up the middle or if an outlet occurs at all. It’s basically all read and react, how can most or any of this be taught by the coach. These players have been learning and working on break outs since they were children.

I’m not trying to take anything from Darryl because clearly his presence has improved the team’s overall effort/performance. But I will be interested to see how this team reacts to a more defensively structured team that likes to drop back, clog the neutral zone and feast on turnovers since that’s been the kryptonite of the Flames recently.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Agreed.

The amount of confirmation bias here is staggering. I get that new ultimate shiny toy in Darryl Sutter has arrived, but to say that the last 2 games of quicker breakouts means Ward was definitely teaching a “slower” brand of hockey is ridiculous. During Geoff Ward’s 7 game win streak last season, was he teaching a faster brand of hockey then Bill Peters?

I still don’t know how a coach can even teach slower breakouts. Right before a breakout occurs, the team is in their structure defending. Players have no idea if the outlet will occur along the boards, up the middle or if an outlet occurs at all. It’s basically all read and react, how can most or any of this be taught by the coach. These players have been learning and working on break outs since they were children.

I’m not trying to take anything from Darryl because clearly his presence has improved the team’s overall effort/performance. But I will be interested to see how this team reacts to a more defensively structured team that likes to drop back, clog the neutral zone and feast on turnovers since that’s been the kryptonite of the Flames recently.

I have no issue with being happy about Sutter. I was happy Ward was fired and happier that it was Sutter coming in. I just disagree with a lot of the explanations as to what is different. There’s a lot of people congratulating Sutter on doing some of the exact things they complained about when Ward was coach. Dump and chase, rolling 4 lines, use of the 4th line in important moments.

I’m looking forward to seeing them against a more offensive team than Montreal - a Winnipeg or Toronto. I also am looking forward to seeing what he does against McDavid. I am interested to see if he shadows McDavid, since, when he was a player, that was the strategy against Gretzky.

[kermitology]

My guess is that Ward wasn’t able to effectively communicate what each player was supposed to be doing and as a result the players weren’t clear on what they should be doing exactly. That split second of hesitation is what made them look slow.

Now Sutter on the other hand, he’s famous for his ability to collect a player and effectively communicate the players job to him. He simplified the game to be about the individual job and inspires the work ethic to just do these simple things. He also focuses on getting the puck into the opposing zone as far as possible.

Then it’s free reign for the players, but support each other, like you would your brothers. There’s a reason why Sutter talked about connecting with the players and bringing them together as family.

He also just doesn’t accept lazy, sloppy behaviour. That’s what I kept seeing, they would put up a good game, maybe as a mirage, but they scored a bunch of goals, so they played like they were hot ####. But that undeserved arrogance combined with lazy play was what we were seeing. Not having a solution to check the egos and inspire that work ethic was what made Ward a bad coach.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by kermitology

My guess is that Ward wasn’t able to effectively communicate what each player was supposed to be doing and as a result the players weren’t clear on what they should be doing exactly. That split second of hesitation is what made them look slow.

This fits with what I am seeing, and it also aligns with what the players have been saying. A consistent theme in player interviews since Sutter was hired is that everyone "knows his role."

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