Klein wants Referendum

[Deelow]

Originally posted by Sammie+Dec 11 2004, 11:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Dec 11 2004, 11:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

It's something that will have no impact on you and your rights. So your refusing a right that you already enjoy. All gay people are doing is asking for this same right, thats why your viewed as hateful.

Explain why two gay people being married is going to be a detriment to your way of life and you might get some sympathy for your 'majority', but until then its gonna look like your just worried that the gays will turn you or people you know gay.

Or I guess that maybe God will rain down fire and brimstone... but if that hasn't happened yet, I doubt He's gonna get too worked up over this.

If they want to pretend their relationship is a normal relationship, let them pretend. If they want to pretend to be married, go to a pretend church and pretend to be married. Just leave the majority of people, who believe there is a deeper spiritual relevance to marriage and life, out of this folly.

Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, almost every religious group takes exception to same-sex relationships. The point of marriage and very act of sex is to reproduce the species. The commitment to marriage also includes a commitment to raising children resulting from that relationship. The commitment to family and bringing up children under established norms is very important to most parents, unfortunately it's very existence is presently under attack by a certain small segment of society.

What kind of of society are we creating? Nobody seems to bother to think what will happen to a society when all its norms and values are destroyed and replaced to "please" the "rights" of every small minority in that society. Why are we throwing out the baby with the bath water just to please a minority of the gay community who want to be married?

Tell me. What's the point of life? [/b][/quote]
Prove to me that the majority of people are against gay marriage? not just the majority of Albertans.
You keep bringing up that point, and I don't believe it's true.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Sammie@Dec 11 2004, 11:07 PM
The commitment to marriage also includes a commitment to raising children resulting from that relationship. The commitment to family and bringing up children under established norms is very important to most parents, unfortunately it's very existence is presently under attack by a certain small segment of society.

So people who do not want to have children should not be allowed to marry either?

[Sammie]

Originally posted by Deelow+Dec 11 2004, 05:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Deelow @ Dec 11 2004, 05:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

If they want to pretend their relationship is a normal relationship, let them pretend. If they want to pretend to be married, go to a pretend church and pretend to be married. Just leave the majority of people, who believe there is a deeper spiritual relevance to marriage and life, out of this folly.

Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, almost every religious group takes exception to same-sex relationships. The point of marriage and very act of sex is to reproduce the species. The commitment to marriage also includes a commitment to raising children resulting from that relationship. The commitment to family and bringing up children under established norms is very important to most parents, unfortunately it's very existence is presently under attack by a certain small segment of society.

What kind of of society are we creating? Nobody seems to bother to think what will happen to a society when all its norms and values are destroyed and replaced to "please" the "rights" of every small minority in that society. Why are we throwing out the baby with the bath water just to please a minority of the gay community who want to be married?

Tell me. What's the point of life?

Prove to me that the majority of people are against gay marriage? not just the majority of Albertans.
You keep bringing up that point, and I don't believe it's true. [/b][/quote]
Then let's have a referendum!

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Sammie+Dec 11 2004, 03:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Dec 11 2004, 03:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Do you work for Canada Post?

Thats the only outfit I can think of that pays employees to do nothing.

Really? I don't see too many unemployed pastors and a majority of them have turned down more than a few marriage requests from certain couples. They're interested in seeing marriages last a lifetime. It's a biblical thing. [/b][/quote]
Sorry. I was working from the premise that you knew the difference between a bureaucrat that issues marriage licenses and a clergyman that administers religious marriage rites.

[Sammie]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+Dec 11 2004, 05:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ Dec 11 2004, 05:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Sammie@Dec 11 2004, 11:07 PM
The commitment to marriage also includes a commitment to raising children resulting from that relationship. The commitment to family and bringing up children under established norms is very important to most parents, unfortunately it's very existence is presently under attack by a certain small segment of society.

So people who do not want to have children should not be allowed to marry either? [/b][/quote]
I never said that.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Sammie+Dec 11 2004, 04:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Dec 11 2004, 04:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

It's something that will have no impact on you and your rights. So your refusing a right that you already enjoy. All gay people are doing is asking for this same right, thats why your viewed as hateful.

Explain why two gay people being married is going to be a detriment to your way of life and you might get some sympathy for your 'majority', but until then its gonna look like your just worried that the gays will turn you or people you know gay.

Or I guess that maybe God will rain down fire and brimstone... but if that hasn't happened yet, I doubt He's gonna get too worked up over this.

If they want to pretend their relationship is a normal relationship, let them pretend. If they want to pretend to be married, go to a pretend church and pretend to be married. Just leave the majority of people, who believe there is a deeper spiritual relevance to marriage and life, out of this folly.

Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, almost every religious group takes exception to same-sex relationships. The point of marriage and very act of sex is to reproduce the species. The commitment to marriage also includes a commitment to raising children resulting from that relationship. The commitment to family and bringing up children under established norms is very important to most parents, unfortunately it's very existence is presently under attack by a certain small segment of society.

What kind of of society are we creating? Nobody seems to bother to think what will happen to a society when all its norms and values are destroyed and replaced to "please" the "rights" of every small minority in that society. Why are we throwing out the baby with the bath water just to please a minority of the gay community who want to be married?

Tell me. What's the point of life? [/b][/quote]
Wow, what a sermon. Ends on a hell of a note as well. What is the point of life? I don't know, but I'm sure you'll tell us.

If I go through life without having kids was my life pointless?

[Patek23]

Really marriage now a days is no big deal, with divroces and anullments left and right, Hell on that Rebel Billionaire some woman got married to a complete stranger for a stupid show.


I don't think that it's to big of an exception to allow the gays to marry. Maybe if it was 60 years ago when the purpose of marriage was to raise a family, but not now adays.

[Savvy27]

Originally posted by Sammie@Dec 11 2004, 11:07 PM
Tell me. What's the point of life?

I'm honoured that you would look to me to answer such an age-old question. Unfortunately I don't have the answer to that question, but I will tell you what ISN'T the point of life.

It isn't to be born, be christian, get married, have kids, make them be christian, and die. I'd like to aspire to a bit more than that. I'm not sure what you're idea of a good life would be, but I doubt its similar to mine, which is great because we shouldn't all have the same idea.

Dislike gays all you want, it won't make you a better person or a more comfortable person, but don't try and keep them from enjoying the rights and liberties of other persons. That's all I'm trying to say to you.

And yes I do think that you dislike gays if you feel the need to point out how far from "normal" they are. Sammie you seriously need to take a look around and get back in touch with reality.

I never said that. (in response to the question about people without the intentions of having children being allowed to marry)

You did say it when you said the point of marriage was to have children.

[Sammie]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Dec 11 2004, 05:19 PM
Wow, what a sermon. Ends on a hell of a note as well. What is the point of life? (1) I don't know, but I'm sure you'll tell us.

(2) If I go through life without having kids was my life pointless?

(1) Actually, I was hoping you would tell me.

(2) I wasn't suggesting that.

[Hakan]

Frank Zappa wrote in his autobiography that if you really want to do your child a favour, if you want them to be a good, critically thinking, important member of society you need to do one thing: KEEP THEM AS FAR AWAY FROM RELIGION AS POSSIBLE.

Sammie is a good example of what happens if you don't.

[RougeUnderoos]

You did say the point of marriage is to have children. So if that's the point then to have no children it would be pointless.

You ramble on about propagating the species and bla bla bla and then you ask "What is the point of life"? as and inference along the lines of "if the point of life is not to have kids, what is it"?

If I misread then I apologize. That's sure what it looks like to me though.

You also said "Just leave the majority of people, who believe there is a deeper spiritual relevance to marriage and life, out of this folly.

Nobody wants you in this "folly". You can go through the rest of your life being opposed to same-sex marriage, decrying same-sex marriage, avoiding same-sex couples, doing whatever the hell you want. You don't have to be involved. Nobody is asking you to get involved.

As far as a "deeper spiritual relevance to marriage bla bla bla" there are a hell of a lot of people who don't buy any of that stuff and they have succesful marriages and non-Satanic children so spare me the "marriage is all about god" nonsense. It is if you want it to be. It isn't if you don't.

You sure use the word "majority" a lot. It's a big word, you shouldn't throw it around. In the very near future (tomorrow as it's Sunday) more people will elect not to go to church at all. We don't live in a christian society any more. You may not like it but that's how it is.

[Sammie]

Originally posted by Hakan@Dec 11 2004, 05:49 PM
Frank Zappa wrote in his autobiography that if you really want to do your child a favour, if you want them to be a good, critically thinking, important member of society you need to do one thing: KEEP THEM AS FAR AWAY FROM RELIGION AS POSSIBLE.

Sammie is a good example of what happens if you don't.

Frank Zappa? Now there's someone to turn to for direction on establishing my life-values!

[Sammie]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Dec 11 2004, 05:53 PM
You sure use the word "majority" a lot. It's a big word, you shouldn't throw it around. In the very near future (tomorrow as it's Sunday) more people will elect not to go to church at all. We don't live in a christian society any more. You may not like it but that's how it is.

When you combine the number of Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and Christians you have a good chance of being in the majority.

[Hakan]

Originally posted by Sammie+Dec 11 2004, 04:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Dec 11 2004, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Hakan@Dec 11 2004, 05:49 PM
Frank Zappa wrote in his autobiography that if you really want to do your child a favour, if you want them to be a good, critically thinking, important member of society you need to do one thing: KEEP THEM AS FAR AWAY FROM RELIGION AS POSSIBLE.

Sammie is a good example of what happens if you don't.

Frank Zappa? Now there's someone to turn to for direction on establishing my life-values! [/b][/quote]
Zappa's book has far better life leasons on tolerance and polemics on being a good person than whatever you evidently believe in does.

[The Familia]

Well I'm gonna come out on my stance. ABSOLUTLEY NOT! There should not be any gay marriages allowed. To me personally (I'm Roman Catholic) marriage is classifed as a bond between husband and wife. I don't discriminate against gays nor do I hate them, but the ceremony of marriage is taboo. Why don't they have some other sort of ceremony that allows them to bond? They can call themselves "bonded" not married when asked about it. The sacrement of marriage should not be allowed. If they want to get bonded they can go to their local registers office and get a piece of paper declaring them bonded. The official sacrament and title of marriage should be left to men and women only, like it has been for thousands of years. Gay people should come up with some alternate form of celebration like I have suggested.

[Patek23]

Originally posted by The Familia@Dec 12 2004, 12:50 AM
Well I'm gonna come out on my stance. ABSOLUTLEY NOT! There should not be any gay marriages allowed. To me personally (I'm Roman Catholic) marriage is classifed as a bond between husband and wife. I don't discriminate against gays nor do I hate them, but the ceremony of marriage is taboo. Why don't they have some other sort of ceremony that allows them to bond? They can call themselves "bonded" not married when asked about it. The sacrement of marriage should not be allowed. If they want to get bonded they can go to their local registers office and get a piece of paper declaring them bonded. The official sacrament and title of marriage should be left to men and women only, like it has been for thousands of years. Gay people should come up with some alternate form of celebration like I have suggested.

I'm also Roman Catholic (My family is straight outta Ireland) and like I said before. Marriage is not what it used to be anymore anually there are more divorces than marriages. The days of true marriage are over, not to say that their aren't people out there who are ture to their spouses, but the number of people who cheat in their marriages are also very high (I consider cheating having sex with another person).

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by The Familia@Dec 11 2004, 05:50 PM
I don't discriminate against gays

Yes you do. You are doing it right now. You say you deserve certain rights but another group of people do not because they are different than you.

It's pretty much textbook discrimination.

[Hakan]

If you personally disagree with same sex marriages then don't get married to someone of the same gender. That's fine, that's your right and that's your belief.

It's not your right to impose your belief on other people by not granting them the same legal rights that you enjoy. Why can't people comprehend this?

[Patek23]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Dec 12 2004, 12:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Dec 12 2004, 12:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-The Familia@Dec 11 2004, 05:50 PM
I don't discriminate against gays

Yes you do. You are doing it right now. You say you deserve certain rights but another group of people do not because they are different than you.

It's pretty much textbook discrimination. [/b][/quote]
I disagree. The marriage we use mainly in Canada is with a minister. I think that if the gays go to a minister and ask to be married they should be turned down. If they go to get a marriage license and go the non-religious way than fine.


But at least thats the way I'd want it to go in my church.


A question. Since many religions largely oppose homosexuality than is that discrimination even though it's wide spread belief that gays are no longer believers since God or Gods don't acknowledge gays.

[Hakan]

Originally posted by Flaming Homer+Dec 11 2004, 06:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flaming Homer @ Dec 11 2004, 06:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Yes you do. You are doing it right now. You say you deserve certain rights but another group of people do not because they are different than you.

It's pretty much textbook discrimination.

I disagree. The marriage we use mainly in Canada is with a minister. I think that if the gays go to a minister and ask to be married they should be turned down. If they go to get a marriage license and go the non-religious way than fine.


But at least thats the way I'd want it to go in my church.


A question. Since many religions largely oppose homosexuality than is that discrimination even though it's wide spread belief that gays are no longer believers since God or Gods don't acknowledge gays. [/b][/quote]
Excuse me for my anger but who the ##### do you think you are telling me, my minister and the members of my religion who we can and can't marry? I belong to the United Church where we do endorse gay marriages. This is moral imperialism in so many senses. First you speak for not only your denomination but for the entire religion.

There are many beliefs in Christianity which think that the actual words of Christ (tolerance, not judging other people and giving unrequited love) should bear more importance than obscure one line references in the old testament (hatred of homosexuals).

For you to say that all Ministers regardless of their actual beliefs should not marry gay people shows an obscene amount of ignorance and righteousness that is frankly, quite scary.