Hartley vs. Peters

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Nah. KHL hockey level is much lower than NHL. It would not be a good game to watch. I watched a few KHL games, they are simply no match to an NHL game intensity, speed and skill level.

If European soccer tournaments have taught us anything is that yes, usually the mega clubs win.

But there's always the chance of some club from some Eastern Block country village who plays on a cow pasture to surprise a big club who's payroll is equivalent to that country's GDP. And that's what makes it fun.

I think it would be a fantastic celebration of the sport for the two biggest leagues to stage a Super-cup every season. And who knows, maybe it leads to some common ground diplomatically.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

to be fair he had a much better team

And he’s a much better coach.

Peters was a head coach for parts of 5 years. He missed the playoffs every year but one and got his doors blown off the one time he made it, and by the time the Aliu story broke, he had already lost the team and was two weeks from being fired anyway.

Hartley coached the Avs to four 1st place finishes. I know they are the Sakic/Forsberg/Roy Avs, but he still did that. He’s coached 95 playoff games with a .568 win percentage and a championship.

Hartley got the Atlanta Thrashers to the playoffs. Literally an impossible task for everyone else who tried.

Hartley won a 7-game series with the Calgary Flames without his Norris trophy favorite captain and Russell/Wideman playing 30 a night.

I don’t care if he’s an ####### or says one thing to the media and another behind closed doors - so does literally every coach ever.

He knows how to do the job and he belongs in the NHL. I can’t believe anyone would hold Jonas Hiller pulling the chute on his career and Karri Ramo’s shredded knee against Bob Hartley - what else was he supposed to wring out of that group?

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

And he’s a much better coach.

Peters was a head coach for parts of 5 years. He missed the playoffs every year but one and got his doors blown off the one time he made it, and by the time the Aliu story broke, he had already lost the team and was two weeks from being fired anyway.

Hartley coached the Avs to four 1st place finishes. I know they are the Sakic/Forsberg/Roy Avs, but he still did that. He’s coached 95 playoff games with a .568 win percentage and a championship.

Hartley got the Atlanta Thrashers to the playoffs. Literally an impossible task for everyone else who tried.

Hartley won a 7-game series with the Calgary Flames without his Norris trophy favorite captain and Russell/Wideman playing 30 a night.

I don’t care if he’s an ####### or says one thing to the media and another behind closed doors - so does literally every coach ever.

He knows how to do the job and he belongs in the NHL. I can’t believe anyone would hold Jonas Hiller pulling the chute on his career and Karri Ramo’s shredded knee against Bob Hartley - what else was he supposed to wring out of that group?

Hartley only won in this league on the backs of three or four of the best players this league has seen.

When he saw success in Calgary and Atlanta, it wasn't sustainable and wasn't replicated in other seasons.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Hartley only won in this league on the backs of three or four of the best players this league has seen.

When he saw success in Calgary and Atlanta, it wasn't sustainable and wasn't replicated in other seasons.

Whereas Peters had the square route of F all when it comes to success. The first year he got here he had regular season success because he just let the team play but he got destroyed in the 1st rnd. After that the team puttered out under him. Carolina's play excelled after Peters left town. There is no comparison here at all, Bob Hartley is a much better coach.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Whereas Peters had the square route of F all when it comes to success. The first year he got here he had regular season success because he just let the team play but he got destroyed in the 1st rnd. After that the team puttered out under him. Carolina's play excelled after Peters left town.

I seriously doubt this.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

And he’s a much better coach.

Peters was a head coach for parts of 5 years. He missed the playoffs every year but one and got his doors blown off the one time he made it, and by the time the Aliu story broke, he had already lost the team and was two weeks from being fired anyway.

Hartley coached the Avs to four 1st place finishes. I know they are the Sakic/Forsberg/Roy Avs, but he still did that. He’s coached 95 playoff games with a .568 win percentage and a championship.

Hartley got the Atlanta Thrashers to the playoffs. Literally an impossible task for everyone else who tried.

Hartley won a 7-game series with the Calgary Flames without his Norris trophy favorite captain and Russell/Wideman playing 30 a night.

I don’t care if he’s an ####### or says one thing to the media and another behind closed doors - so does literally every coach ever.

He knows how to do the job and he belongs in the NHL. I can’t believe anyone would hold Jonas Hiller pulling the chute on his career and Karri Ramo’s shredded knee against Bob Hartley - what else was he supposed to wring out of that group?

I agree with most stuff here strongly, with the exception of the bolded.



If Hartley stopped being so 'abrasive' (to put it mildly), then yes, he should absolutely return to the NHL, and I think he is a great coach. I think he could get similar results and get his teams to play just as hard for him if he just toned that part down a few notches. He would still be a tough coach - still very much a 'hard ass' - but not someone who goes 'over the line', and still have success in this league.


I also subscribe to the notion that Hartley isn't a one-trick pony either. I am convinced that his system that he used, which wasn't a system that produces favourable analytics, was probably the right system for this team at the time, but I bet he would have modified it as the talent level on this team increased and the roster matured.



I would love to see him back in the NHL as a head coach of a team that is average on paper and in the standings, just to see how he would do, and see if the underlying metrics support my theory that he is actually a very good coach (again, aside from his abrasiveness).

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I seriously doubt this.

If it's true then we should just let this team play. That team, apparently without a coach, had more structure than the Flames have seen since March 2019 onward.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I seriously doubt this.

He literally stated when he came in that the group wanted to play an uptempo fast brand of hockey and that was what they were going to do, which they did. After they got killed by the Av's he changed the system to that slow monstrosity we have seen under him and Ward and the team floundered. There is nothing to doubt.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

He literally stated when he came in that the group wanted to play an uptempo fast brand of hockey and that was what they were going to do, which they did. After they got killed by the Av's he changed the system to that slow monstrosity we have seen under him and Ward and the team floundered. There is nothing to doubt.

That's different than "letting the team play" - which is an inference that he wasn't coaching.


He did come in and coach this team (properly, IMO) until the all-star game, and then he failed to coach them well at all since then.



We aren't talking about Mike Keenan here


Edit: To make it clear, I am referencing "Uptempo system" as coaching the team properly. He did have this team playing well within an uptempo system for a while, and it seemed to have changed into something horrible. However, he was definitely coaching, not like Keenan who was basically 'hands off' and slotted players according to salary, and had them 'figure stuff out by themselves'.

[GioforPM]

Just saying “Sakic/Forsberg/Roy Avs” is even a bit of an understatement. Also Adam Foote, Milan Hedjuk, Ray Bourque, Rob Blake, Tanguay, Drury, and for grit: Neimenen and Yelle.

That’s what - 5 HOFers on one team, plus a guy a who won the Richard (Hedjuk), a Calder winner (Drury), an Olympic gold medallist (Foote). These were all peak players, too, except Bourque. Sakic won the Hart and Pearson trophies that year and Forsberg won the Ross and Hart the next.

Yet Hartley lasted 1.5 seasons after winning the Cup. And in Atlanta he finished out of the POs every year except his third when they finished first but got bounced in 4 games by the Rangers who were not very good (which, around here, means you are a coaching failure). Then he was gone the next year after 6 games. Atlanta wasn’t exactly a crappy team either. Hossa was in his prime, they had Kovalchuk, Kozlov, Savard.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

If it's true then we should just let this team play. That team, apparently without a coach, had more structure than the Flames have seen since March 2019 onward.

It is pretty amazing how our memories change over time. I also have very fond memories of Hartley's 2014–15 Flames, who seemed never to be out of a game no matter the score. But I also have some recollection of the following season, and rather prevalent criticisms of Hartley's passive defensive style, a lack of possession-driving play, and very poor special teams. Yeah, his goaltenders were not great, but when the other team always has the puck there isn't much a goalie can do. For all the complaints here about the previous coach's inability to make in-game adjustments, Hartley was lambasted for the same thing just as frequently.

It has been five years since Hartley has coached in the NHL, and I am betting that no one here has been closely watching his teams in Avengard. All we have to go on is his last appearance with the Flames, and it was far from stellar. But even beyond his coaching abilities at the highest level, it is pretty clear that for all his early accolades Bob Hartley sure does not command much respect in this League. Matt Stajan was on the radio earlier this week, and he practically balked at a suggested comparison between Hartley and Darryl Sutter. He followed up right away with noting how highly Sutter is respected, and how deeply he genuinely cares about his players.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

That's different than "letting the team play" - which is an inference that he wasn't coaching.


He did come in and coach this team (properly, IMO) until the all-star game, and then he failed to coach them well at all since then.



We aren't talking about Mike Keenan here


Edit: To make it clear, I am referencing "Uptempo system" as coaching the team properly. He did have this team playing well within an uptempo system for a while, and it seemed to have changed into something horrible. However, he was definitely coaching, not like Keenan who was basically 'hands off' and slotted players according to salary, and had them 'figure stuff out by themselves'.

That was not how I meant it, that he didn't coach. I meant he let the team play the game they were interested in playing. Then he changed it the year after they got beat by Colorado.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Hartley only won in this league on the backs of three or four of the best players this league has seen.

When he saw success in Calgary and Atlanta, it wasn't sustainable and wasn't replicated in other seasons.

If it’s not sustainable and not replicable, then the team itself overachieved. Being more than the sum of your parts is a hallmark of good coaching.

Hartley’s points percentage with the Thrashers for four seasons:

.564
.476
.549
.591

Bob won 40+ games his last two seasons. I can’t stress enough, the Atlanta Thrashers were never good. They bled talent and relocated to Winnipeg. That’s how well run that team was.

Calgary points %:

.438 - last year of Iggy and Kipper - Kipper missed major time, Iggy and Bouw were traded.
.470 - has Johnny for 1 game, rookie Monahan, goalies are Ramo, Joey MacDonald and the Berracade
.591 - first year he has a quasi-real lineup, and he makes the playoffs.
.470 - he deserved better this year - the goaltending was appalling, they started with the 3-headed monster, Hiller quit, Ramo got hurt, they had Old Man Nik Backstrom getting starts at the end of that year.

Who can overcome that?

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

If it’s not sustainable and not replicable, then the team itself overachieved. Being more than the sum of your parts is a hallmark of good coaching.

Hartley’s points percentage with the Thrashers for four seasons:

.564
.476
.549
.591

Bob won 40+ games his last two seasons. I can’t stress enough, the Atlanta Thrashers were never good. They bled talent and relocated to Winnipeg. That’s how well run that team was.

Calgary points %:

.438 - last year of Iggy and Kipper - Kipper missed major time, Iggy and Bouw were traded.
.470 - has Johnny for 1 game, rookie Monahan, goalies are Ramo, Joey MacDonald and the Berracade
.591 - first year he has a quasi-real lineup, and he makes the playoffs.
.470 - he deserved better this year - the goaltending was appalling, they started with the 3-headed monster, Hiller quit, Ramo got hurt, they had Old Man Nik Backstrom getting starts at the end of that year.

Who can overcome that?

I'm not saying Hartley should have been fired. He definitely had a poorer team than the coaches did after him.

But he's simply a bad coach. He's been that pretty much everywhere he's gone. Combined with being a bad human as well, I have no love lost on this.

[Erick Estrada]

LOL why are you people doing this to yourselves?

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I'm not saying Hartley should have been fired. He definitely had a poorer team than the coaches did after him.

But he's simply a bad coach. He's been that pretty much everywhere he's gone. Combined with being a bad human as well, I have no love lost on this.

Gulutzan is a bad coach.

Peters is a bad coach.

Greg Gilbert is a bad coach.

Dallas Eakins is a bad coach.

Hartley finished 1st and went to the Conference Finals or better four years in a row. He took a team that was supposed to achieve great things and got them
To achieve great things. He did his job.

Yes, I know those Avs teams were incredible. They weren’t the only ones - Detroit, New Jersey, and Dallas were no less stacked than the Avalanche.

He still had to go through Scotty Bowman, Ken Hitchcock, and he beat Larry Robinson and Prime Marty Brodeur to win his title.

You don’t have to put the guy in the Hall of Fame, but he’s quite clearly not a bad coach.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

If it’s not sustainable and not replicable, then the team itself overachieved. Being more than the sum of your parts is a hallmark of good coaching.

Hartley’s points percentage with the Thrashers for four seasons:

.564
.476
.549
.591

Bob won 40+ games his last two seasons. I can’t stress enough, the Atlanta Thrashers were never good. They bled talent and relocated to Winnipeg. That’s how well run that team was.

Calgary points %:

.438 - last year of Iggy and Kipper - Kipper missed major time, Iggy and Bouw were traded.
.470 - has Johnny for 1 game, rookie Monahan, goalies are Ramo, Joey MacDonald and the Berracade
.591 - first year he has a quasi-real lineup, and he makes the playoffs.
.470 - he deserved better this year - the goaltending was appalling, they started with the 3-headed monster, Hiller quit, Ramo got hurt, they had Old Man Nik Backstrom getting starts at the end of that year.

Who can overcome that?

His .438 team he still had, aside from Jaybo and Iginla, guys like Cammi, Tanguay, Glencross, Stempniak, Hudler, Stajan, Backlund, Wideman, Gio, and Brodie. Not a good team, but .438 is horrific. That team is better overall on paper than his 14-15 team, IMO.

Atlanta was OOP for all but one year and that year they finished first and then dropped 4 straight to a mediocre NYR. And don’t we always complain about PO performances here? Then he got fired after 6 games the next year.

Hartley’s big claim to fame around here is, at the end of the day, winning 3 more PO games than Ward. And that’s if you don’t count the play-in (which sure felt like PO games to me). And the team that Ward lost to went to the finals, so there’s that.

If Hartley was a good NHL coach, he’d be in the NHL. Heck, if he was good, it wouldn’t have taken him as long as it did to get hired after Atlanta. Only Jay Feaster would even talk to him.

[AustinL_NHL]

Hartley was not a good coach. At least not during his time in Calgary. His teams played incredibly hard and exciting hockey, but his systems were a total mess and 99% of the hockey world new the 2014-15 season was a season of pure unsustainable hockey.

In fact, I would argue that set the Flames back, as the Flames and fanbase had fully embraced the rebuild leading up to that season and were expecting/hoping to be in the McDavid sweepstakes. Instead, one could argue that it somewhat changed Treliving's goals for the Flames, as that summer he went ahead and traded for Hamilton and signed Frolik, looking to build upon that performance when it was clear that was a one time thing.

Darryl Sutter is the opposite of Hartley. Yes, he's still a hardass, but not in an abusive manner like Hartley was. Plus, Sutter's systems are the elite of the elite, as his teams consistently dominate across the board in possession, shots, scoring chances, etc... whereas Hartley's systems were always near the bottom.

It's unfortunate that we won't get to see his systems fully implemented until next season, but even just doing as he said, which is improving the execution and making minor tweaks in the system, on top of him commanding absolute full effort, will provide massive improvements for the Flames.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

His .438 team he still had, aside from Jaybo and Iginla, guys like Cammi, Tanguay, Glencross, Stempniak, Hudler, Stajan, Backlund, Wideman, Gio, and Brodie. Not a good team, but .438 is horrific. That team is better overall on paper than his 14-15 team, IMO.

Atlanta was OOP for all but one year and that year they finished first and then dropped 4 straight to a mediocre NYR. And don’t we always complain about PO performances here? Then he got fired after 6 games the next year.

Hartley’s big claim to fame around here is, at the end of the day, winning 3 more PO games than Ward. And that’s if you don’t count the play-in (which sure felt like PO games to me). And the team that Ward lost to went to the finals, so there’s that.

If Hartley was a good NHL coach, he’d be in the NHL. Heck, if he was good, it wouldn’t have taken him as long as it did to get hired after Atlanta. Only Jay Feaster would even talk to him.

Hartley’s 1st year, we weren’t sure if Backlund was even going to make it as an NHLer.

Stempniak, Glencross, Stajan, Hudler, past-prime Cammalleri, Brodie just beginning to establish himself as a full time player, Iggy, Bo and Kipper on the way out the door, and an ascendant Gio.

No Johnny, no Monahan, but hey, he did have Sven!

He didn’t make the playoffs with THAT in a shortened season?

No.

Way.


That garbage roster he had to work with was the same one that hadn’t made the playoffs without Mike Keenan, and Hartley didn’t even have the benefit of a healthy Kiprusoff.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Hartley’s 1st year, we weren’t sure if Backlund was even going to make it as an NHLer.

Stempniak, Glencross, Stajan, Hudler, past-prime Cammalleri, Brodie just beginning to establish himself as a full time player, Iggy, Bo and Kipper on the way out the door, and an ascendant Gio.

No Johnny, no Monahan, but hey, he did have Sven!

He didn’t make the playoffs with THAT in a shortened season?

No.

Way.


That garbage roster he had to work with was the same one that hadn’t made the playoffs without Mike Keenan, and Hartley didn’t even have the benefit of a healthy Kiprusoff.

To repeat myself, I’m not judging by “didn’t make the POs”. They had the second worst Flames winning percentage of all time. Worse than Gilbert. Worse than Hay/Gilbert. The worst since Jarome’s rookie year, when Theo was a mess and the starter was Rick Tabaracci and the D boasted Cale Hulse, Tommy Albelin and James Patrick.

“Past prime Cammalleri” went on to score 20 goals a few more times. And it was Backlund’s 4th season.