2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Toonage

I'm not absolving the Flames for being where they are, but the Canadian teams overall do a poor job of committing to rebuilds or applying the patience required. Its my belief thats why we won't have a Canadian cup champion until it changes. They hit on a touch of success and thats it, rebuild over. Trade the picks.

Also hanging on to aging superstars when it's clearly futile. Iginla, Sundin, Sedins, Koivu.

Not sure you can fault the Oilers too badly for Smyth, and the Sens at least managed to salvage something for their best assets, though both of these teams had the benefit of falling off a cliff instead of a more gradual decline.

Originally Posted by Toonage

I think a great example of how Canadian teams approach rebuilds was Toronto from several years ago.

"Pain" was what Babcock warned the fanbase with.

That lasted a season.

TBF, it was a rebuild 2.0 have Burke pooched the first one. Too bad we didn't re-tool here.

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I don’t disagree.

On the sample size, the game went through significant change after the 2005 lockout, so that’s how far I looked back.

The first two years coming out of the lockout were crapshoot years as the system figured itself out, then the Wings/Pens years were an obvious transition of teams built pre-lockout vs. teams built post-lockout. IMO '08 is the right place to draw the line for the 'salary cap era'.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by dammage79

I agree with New Era. We have 3 forward line combos that work or have worked to great success . Them trying to "spread the wealth" and lock into forward pairs while slotting in pieces hasn't worked. And it's thrown everyone off.

You're gonna hate Sutters approach then...he is the king of coaches in that he is rigid on using pairs over lines.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Is the media bubble that intense in Calgary, Edmonton and Winnipeg? I'm not so sure it is. Compare it to a pro sports team (not NHL) in a major American city and it's not.

I'd say every team in cities like Philly, Boston, Chicago, Pittsburgh have a lot more scrutiny. They are comparable to TO and Montreal.

I don't have a great explanation for why Canadian teams haven't won in so long, beyond luck and things happening in cycles. And maybe some element is these cities are on many no trade lists.

Hockey isn't the #1 sport in any of those cities...in fact its 3 or 4

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Psytic

The only thing separating us and TO / EDM is they lucked out on some super star picks. I would argue Winnipeg is looking like the only Canadian team that has been successful in building the right way. Flames should maybe look at them as the odds of us getting a McDavid or Matthews is slim.

In the last 7 drafts the Jets have had the following for picks

1st round - 7
2nd round - 4
3rd round - 5

They made the playoffs in 3 out of the 5 years where there was a full season and won two playoff rounds since 14/15. They will make the playoffs this year

Over the same time period the Flames have had the following for picks

First round - 5
2nd round - 7
3rd round - 5

They made the playoffs 3 out of the 5 years there was a full season and won the play-in last year. They won one series in that time and look like they will miss the playoffs this year.

I doubt that you could trade 3 2nd rounders for two first rounders, so one could say that the Jets held on to higher value picks, had more playoff success and have a better core going forward. Hard to say the Jets had a bunch more picks though.

In hindsight it would have been nice if Scheifele had been healthy last year because it could have been a different series and may have accelerated the changes that need to take place in Calgary. But it may not matter anyway because I suspect that any changes will be around a win now philosophy and I do not think the Flames have the assets to accomplish that and it risks selling off even more future assets to try to achieve better short term results. We will see how Zary turns out, but even last year to recoup two third rounders we basically did a version of the Jankowski trade. What this team really needs to do is what the Rangers did a couple years ago and the Flyers have done more than once and admit that this group does not have it and recoup whatever future assets it can from this roster and try to have a contender 24 months from now. However, that is not going to happen.

[Harry Lime]

I'm not sure how reputable the Fourth Period is, but there is some chatter that Brett Connelly of the Panthers could find his way to NYI for Leo Kormarov. Kormarov is only owed 2M in real money, to Connelly's 7M, but both cap hits and duration are pretty much the same.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by transplant99

You're gonna hate Sutters approach then...he is the king of coaches in that he is rigid on using pairs over lines.

Yeah I’m pretty sure he said as much in his first teleconference media appearance.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Hockey isn't the #1 sport in any of those cities...in fact its 3 or 4

Exactly. And yet the pro teams in those cities with all the media scrutiny are able to build contenders. It’s an excuse that doesn’t hold water IMO.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

When I look at the incompetence of the Oilers I see nothing "right" at all. What I do see is them stumbling into the one of the most offensively gifted players of the last few generations through nothing at all beyond sheer luck.

Psytic is completely right: it takes an enormous amount of good fortune to assemble the necessary high-end talent that is required for building a championship team. As poor as the Flames have been at accumulating draft capital, they have been at least as unlucky.

Since 2004 here are picks from 2nd rd and beyond to play more than 300 games:

45. Petry
113. Rieder (they traded him for a bust before he played a single game)
63. Khaira* (235gp and counting)
93. Erik Gustafsson (rights not retained by EDM, still shy of 300gp)
117. Caleb Jones* (73+)
124. Ethan Bear* (103+)

Essentially one top half of the roster player (Petry) in 15+ years (of course most recent drafts still pending).

It's unbelievable, especially considering how high they've drafted 31 (x2), 32 (x2), 36, 40, 44, 45, 46, 48...and 27 more picks in the top 100 (2004-2016)

2 out of 37 hit rate on picks from #31-100 in that time.

Unpossible that any other team is anywhere near as bad.

[Flamenspiel]

I don’t think there is a universal answer to why Canadian teams have not won in a while. It’s different for each team. Winnipeg and Ottawa have the best drafts and amateur scouting but are financially challenged. Montreal and Calgary never suck enough to get the top players. Vancouver has bad luck and it’s Vancouver. Toronto could be on the way after 4 decades of bad management.

Aaaaaaand with Edmonton it’s something in the water.....

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Exactly. And yet the pro teams in those cities with all the media scrutiny are able to build contenders. It’s an excuse that doesn’t hold water IMO.

This makes no sense...those NHL teams mentioned are not under the same scrutiny as Canadian hockey teams. Guys on bad teams in Canada can't go to the grocery store without an earful.

The average joe in Philly can't name 3 players. Average American doesn't have a clue who Connor McDavid is. I am not saying it excuses Canadian teams for sucking but don't try to tell me those teams have the same scrutiny. They are barely mentioned on local media.

[Table 5]

Outside of their whole ownership fiasco, I think Ottawa's approach is the best. They put a high priority on drafting and internal development, and when they suck, they fully embrace the suckage until they load up their prospect pool. It's a team that yo-yos between being a laughing stock, and the Canadian team with the best playoff success.

I'll take Ottawa's approach to the purgatory nightmare we're always stuck in.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by dino7c

This makes no sense...those NHL teams mentioned are not under the same scrutiny as Canadian hockey teams. Guys on bad teams in Canada can't go to the grocery store without an earful.

The average joe in Philly can't name 3 players. Average American doesn't have a clue who Connor McDavid is. I am not saying it excuses Canadian teams for sucking but don't try to tell me those teams have the same scrutiny. They are barely mentioned on local media.

Fans of Canadian NHL teams use media scrutiny as some excuse. It's nothing compared to what pro sports teams in the cities I mentioned deal with. Think beyond the NHL for a second which was the point of my two posts.

But you also don't have an appreciation of how popular the local NHL team is in certain cities in the NE. They're not as anonymous as you think, Iginla's man on the street interview notwithstanding.

Ever been to Pittsburgh, Chicago or Detroit during the playoffs or on first day of the season? Hockey jerseys and flags everywhere. I remember running into Joe Sakic in a shopping mall in Denver. Everyone knew who he was.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Fans of Canadian NHL teams use media scrutiny as some excuse. It's nothing compared to what pro sports teams in the cities I mentioned deal with. Think beyond the NHL for a second which was the point of my two posts.

But you also don't have an appreciation of how popular the local NHL team is in certain cities in the NE. They're not as anonymous as you think, Iginla's man on the street interview notwithstanding.

Ever been to Pittsburgh, Chicago or Detroit during the playoffs or on first day of the season? Hockey jerseys and flags everywhere. I remember running into Joe Sakic in a shopping mall in Denver. Everyone knew who he was.

I am not trying to excuse anyone I merely disagree that those places NHL teams have more scrutiny than Calgary or Edmonton...they don't.

Our sports stations are 95% Flames/Oilers

As for the NFL they are the biggest game in town in every city so...there isn't a large discrepancy between teams.

Compare the Leafs to the Panthers...One is the biggest team in an entire country and the other gets less fanfare than high school football

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Fans of Canadian NHL teams use media scrutiny as some excuse. It's nothing compared to what pro sports teams in the cities I mentioned deal with. Think beyond the NHL for a second which was the point of my two posts.

But you also don't have an appreciation of how popular the local NHL team is in certain cities in the NE. They're not as anonymous as you think, Iginla's man on the street interview notwithstanding.

Ever been to Pittsburgh, Chicago or Detroit during the playoffs or on first day of the season? Hockey jerseys and flags everywhere. I remember running into Joe Sakic in a shopping mall in Denver. Everyone knew who he was.

I understand what you are getting at, and I continue to think that you are badly discounting the relative difference in the intensity of scrutiny comparatively between every Canadian and every American NHL market. The fact that Canadians rightly or wrongly have laid claim to hockey as "our game" only serves to exacerbate the situation to an extent that is not reflected in any one of the 24 US markets.

And please stop saying that this is being offered as some wort of "excuse." No one is excusing Canadian teams for being so frustratingly shortsighted, but it certainly is a legitimate observation to see that the pressure has contributed to the results.

[dino7c]

The last time a team won the Stanley Cup in a city that hockey is the #1 sport was 1993

not an excuse, just a fact

[Poster]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I'm not sure how reputable the Fourth Period is, but there is some chatter that Brett Connelly of the Panthers could find his way to NYI for Leo Kormarov. Kormarov is only owed 2M in real money, to Connelly's 7M, but both cap hits and duration are pretty much the same.

Thank you for an on topic post!

I wonder why NYI would consider this. Neither player is of much consequence but the financials are quite a big difference. Perhaps they would get a pick like a 2nd for this move!

[SilverKast]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Since 2004 here are picks from 2nd rd and beyond to play more than 300 games:

45. Petry
113. Rieder (they traded him for a bust before he played a single game)
63. Khaira* (235gp and counting)
93. Erik Gustafsson (rights not retained by EDM, still shy of 300gp)
117. Caleb Jones* (73+)
124. Ethan Bear* (103+)

Essentially one top half of the roster player (Petry) in 15+ years (of course most recent drafts still pending).

It's unbelievable, especially considering how high they've drafted 31 (x2), 32 (x2), 36, 40, 44, 45, 46, 48...and 27 more picks in the top 100 (2004-2016)

2 out of 37 hit rate on picks from #31-100 in that time.

Unpossible that any other team is anywhere near as bad.

Honest question as I don't know the answer, but are we much better than that? I don't know that either team has had a particularly glowing draft record over that period. I know Brodie and Gaudreau stand out as late round success stories for us.

[Knut]

Originally Posted by SilverKast

Honest question as I don't know the answer, but are we much better than that? I don't know that either team has had a particularly glowing draft record over that period. I know Brodie and Gaudreau stand out as late round success stories for us.

Mangiapane is becoming a late round success story.

[N-E-B]

Canadian teams typically have a harder time luring free agents without massively overpaying and are often on players no-trade lists.

I don’t think it’s any coincidence Canadian teams have a harder time winning. We have a disadvantage that places like LA and New York simply don’t have to deal with. It’s bull#### and totally unfair (which is why I think NTC’s should die forever) but it is what it is.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by dino7c

This makes no sense...those NHL teams mentioned are not under the same scrutiny as Canadian hockey teams. Guys on bad teams in Canada can't go to the grocery store without an earful.

The average joe in Philly can't name 3 players. Average American doesn't have a clue who Connor McDavid is. I am not saying it excuses Canadian teams for sucking but don't try to tell me those teams have the same scrutiny. They are barely mentioned on local media.

Unlike the 80's where no Flames fans could recognize Lanny McDonald or Mike Vernon when they saw them on the street. The glory days when Canadian teams won 7 straight Cups and the players were able to play in anonymity.