The Deal With Geoff Ward

[mikeecho]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

You could be right. I was always under the assumption that Peters was still being paid by the team, but I might be wrong.

It’s unlikely the Flames are still paying Peters. Coaches aren’t technically fired. They’re relieved of their duties and still paid and remain under contract. If the coach wants to work, the team that “fired” him needs to give their permission.

If Peters was still under contract to the Flames, Peters would have probably terminated his contract and any remaining pay to go to the KHL.

More than likely, the Flames came to a settlement with Peters at the time of the incident to pay him out and formally terminate his contract making Bill Peters a free agent.

[GranteedEV]

my biggest takeaway from the Versteeg commentary is:

I wish we had Joel Quennville. It's so Flames to have fired Gulutzan just soon enough that we didn't get to add Quennville when he became available 15 games later.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

I don't think many people make it to the NHL that aren't high end competitors.

I have a hard time thinking the majority of this team doesn't want to win.

Mostly all start their careers as high end competitors or they don’t play in the NHL for long.

Things can change sometimes, as the cookie jar gets exponentially more full.

Especially some of those who have overcome so much and have worked so hard to get those mega million second and third contracts.

Their huge contracts are guaranteed. You’re in the 80 plus percentile of highest paid players.

I have never ever said that the top players don’t WANT to win.

Simply questioning their commitment to consistently DO what it takes to get better and win.

There’s a HUGE DIFFERENCE.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by timbit

Mostly all start their careers as high end competitors or they don’t play in the NHL for long.

Things can change sometimes, as the cookie jar gets exponentially more full.

Especially some of those who have overcome so much and have worked so hard to get those mega million second and third contracts.

Their huge contracts are guaranteed. You’re in the 80 plus percentile of highest paid players.

I have never ever said that the top players don’t WANT to win.

Simply questioning their commitment to consistently DO what it takes to get better and win.

There’s a HUGE DIFFERENCE.

Some of them are high end competitors for themselves. I’m sure they all want to win but are not able to get away from what they experienced gave them success in junior, etc. It’s hard to do, in the moment, things that are contrary to what you’ve done before.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

my biggest takeaway from the Versteeg commentary is:

I wish we had Joel Quennville. It's so Flames to have fired Gulutzan just soon enough that we didn't get to add Quennville when he became available 15 games later.

I’m not even sure a Quennville would’ve come here anyway. These coaches are just like the players, they’ll generally go to where it’s sunnier, with less taxes and less pressure. If i was an older guy like Quennville, I’d take the high paid sunny Florida gig all day then to deal with the harsh cold of the prairies and the media of a hockey mad market.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I’m not even sure a Quennville would’ve come here anyway. These coaches are just like the players, they’ll generally go to where it’s sunnier, with less taxes and less pressure. If i was an older guy like Quennville, I’d take the high paid sunny Florida gig all day then to deal with the harsh cold of the prairies and the media of a hockey mad market.

They also paid him $5.25M per season PLUS $1.75M in potential bonuses. That's like 3x more than any Flames coach has made.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

I don't think many people make it to the NHL that aren't high end competitors. Definitely not a team full of them.

At the end of the day these are humans, not machines. They are subject to ups and downs. If you've ever had a bad boss you know they can suck the energy out of even the most exuberant employee.

I think Ward doesn't have the answers for the team, and with 80 games under him doing the same failing things over and over again it may be grinding the team down.

I have a hard time thinking the majority of this team doesn't want to win.

I've said it before and I'll say it again
Wanting to win is easy
Hating to lose is easy
Being committed to winning is where it gets hard.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

my biggest takeaway from the Versteeg commentary is:

I wish we had Joel Quennville. It's so Flames to have fired Gulutzan just soon enough that we didn't get to add Quennville when he became available 15 games later.

You actually think we would have spend the money to get Quennville.

Boudreau was sitting right there this offseason and we ended up with Geoff Ward.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by mikeecho

It’s unlikely the Flames are still paying Peters. Coaches aren’t technically fired. They’re relieved of their duties and still paid and remain under contract. If the coach wants to work, the team that “fired” him needs to give their permission.

If Peters was still under contract to the Flames, Peters would have probably terminated his contract and any remaining pay to go to the KHL.

More than likely, the Flames came to a settlement with Peters at the time of the incident to pay him out and formally terminate his contract making Bill Peters a free agent.

Coaches taking another job doesn't mean the previous team is off the hook for what they owe them. Within the NHL, it's a negotiation between the teams involved - usually it's just an offset of costs from the previous team.

Not sure how it works to coach in another league, but it's definitely not a matter of the previous contract just ending.

Peters case is of course unique. Without knowing the clauses included in the contract it's hard to say how it played out financially (but likely a settlement as you say).

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

They also paid him $5.25M per season PLUS $1.75M in potential bonuses. That's like 3x more than any Flames coach has made.

In zero tax Fla.

I’m not sure it’s 3X more than either Sutter in 2021 dollars.

[Manhattanboy]

Not to defend Ward but maybe its so easy to move a forward up and down the line-up and to and from waivers and the taxi squad because they are all crappy.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

1. Nah, I have been watching this since people started talking about D to D. It’s the same every night.

2. I’m only counting line changes where it’s obvious - where they back right up and hold for a complete change.

Anyway, I’m not convincing you, I just know that I’ve specifically looked at it and I didn’t expect the result (therefore no confirmation bias possible).

I think you are getting hung up on one aspect of what was said about the system.

The main takeaway for me is the team plays slow, around the perimeter and allows the opposition to set up their defensive and in many cases offensive structures because we have a system that slows things down.

It’s not difficult to see that is the case and when you look back at the times this team has had its most success is when we play a system that is uptempo and caters to scoring on the rush.

We need a coach that knows how to see this teams strengths and weakness and build a system around it. Not just implement a system and see it continually fail and expect different results as time passes. Yea it might work for a short period of time cause the players talents will allow that to happen every so often but with how good coaches are in this league you need to be able to adjust to what you are seeing in front of you.

Why are we trying to get players to play a system that doesn’t fit their skill sets? A system that continually fails? A system that allows the other team to get setup how they want to instead of catching them off guard and force mistakes in the confusion.

It’s actually maddening how they seem to think this is something that will yield success.

Get the opposition out of their comfort zone using speed, quick passes, puck support which will inhibit them from getting comfortably setup defensively.

It makes no friggen sense.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

I think you are getting hung up on one aspect of what was said about the system.

The main takeaway for me is the team plays slow, around the perimeter and allows the opposition to set up their defensive and in many cases offensive structures because we have a system that slows things down.

It’s not difficult to see that is the case and when you look back at the times this team has had its most success is when we play a system that is uptempo and caters to scoring on the rush.

We need a coach that knows how to see this teams strengths and weakness and build a system around it. Not just implement a system and see it continually fail and expect different results as time passes. Yea it might work for a short period of time cause the players talents will allow that to happen every so often but with how good coaches are in this league you need to be able to adjust to what you are seeing in front of you.

Why are we trying to get players to play a system that doesn’t fit their skill sets? A system that continually fails? A system that allows the other team to get setup how they want to instead of catching them off guard and force mistakes in the confusion.

It’s actually maddening how they seem to think this is something that will yield success.

Get the opposition out of their comfort zone using speed, quick passes, puck support which will inhibit them from getting comfortably setup defensively.

It makes no friggen sense.

This team does play on the perimeter way too much, no matter how they enter. I’m not convinced that’s coached. Every cycle I know has a close in shot as the goal. This team, when playing well, is actually quite a good cycling team. And most of its lines are better off that way. Backlund, Mangiapane, Lucic, Dube, Tkachuk all play a game that’s good for cycling and Gaudreau/Monahan/Lindholm also have a skill set that works.

I think we tend to remember the purple drink line’s rush goals because they’re pretty. But this team really isn’t fast enough to catch opponents off guard in a rush game. They try to carry the puck, but end up chipping because they run out of options. They actually play a decent recovery game but then, like you say, they are content to pass around the perimeter. I seriously doubt that they are coached not to go to the net. It’s just hard.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

They also paid him $5.25M per season PLUS $1.75M in potential bonuses. That's like 3x more than any Flames coach has made.

Zero chance JQ was coming here even if the dollars were comparable. We’re talking a coach who’s nearing retirement age who probably would’ve moved down to Florida anyway.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

This team does play on the perimeter way too much, no matter how they enter. I’m not convinced that’s coached. Every cycle I know has a close in shot as the goal. This team, when playing well, is actually quite a good cycling team. And most of its lines are better off that way. Backlund, Mangiapane, Lucic, Dube, Tkachuk all play a game that’s good for cycling and Gaudreau/Monahan/Lindholm also have a skill set that works.

I think we tend to remember the purple drink line’s rush goals because they’re pretty. But this team really isn’t fast enough to catch opponents off guard in a rush game. They try to carry the puck, but end up chipping because they run out of options. They actually play a decent recovery game but then, like you say, they are content to pass around the perimeter. I seriously doubt that they are coached not to go to the net. It’s just hard.

Playing quickly isn't about having blazing fast speed, it's about making quick decisions and moving the puck quickly. Catching a team off guard is about tactics, not skating speed. As Jagr said, it's not about going to the wrong place quickly, it's about going to the right place.

A good coach helps his players get to the right place. We do not have a good coach.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

Playing quickly isn't about having blazing fast speed, it's about making quick decisions and moving the puck quickly. Catching a team off guard is about tactics, not skating speed. As Jagr said, it's not about going to the wrong place quickly, it's about going to the right place.

A good coach helps his players get to the right place. We do not have a good coach.

I agree with this. But you can only go so far in coaching to get quick decisions. Some of these guys seem incapable of it. There’s very few one touch passes (Monahan actually does this the most).

I’ve insisted the Flames don’t go D to D. But they (and the low forwards) are slow in passing from every location, and their passing is off. And the D can only pass to where the Fs are, and too often they are strictly on the left side.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Yeah there are a lot of things that are coached

I know everyone complains about the drop pass. Thing is, the drop pass, in and of itself, works... that is, when the first puck carrier pushes back the opponent and then the trailer can take a look at what’s open, and attack through the weak area. Problem is that the decision is made by Rasmus at his own blue line that he is going to drop, and it plays out like this. Rasmus skates past their F1, who doesn’t bite, Rasmus looks way back to find Gaudreau by Rittich, and the other team watches amusedly as this ridiculously long drop pass happens, and they do not bite on anything and create space. Gaudreau skates in to a defensive structure that was not impacted by the drop pass and loses it.

The drop pass is clearly coached but apparently how it works isn’t understood

And that Twitter video that Justin Bourne posted and pointed out Bennett being easy on Norris? The issue with that was how astonishingly passive the Flames are in the d zone. Absolutely no pressure to force Ottawa to do anything, much less make a mistake. And it does not lend itself to any kind of a transition that results in an odd man situation unless a winger blows the zone and they go for a stretch pass.

Which sometimes happens. Then when the stretch pass doesn’t come, Tkachuk parks himself on the far blue line and waits. Then somebody finally passes to him, and he either chips it in because he is standing still and the opponents win the race to the puck (because he chips it in his own corner, making it a race even less likely to be won by his linemates), or if he keeps it, two guys converge on him and take it away

Just a couple of examples of things you see fairly often

It is brutal to watch

[Enoch Root]

It is part of their structure to bunch the 3 forwards on one side.

Their systems make passing really difficult - too close together in their own zone, making it really easy for the opposition to forecheck, and all on one side (and usually standing still after the D have passed it back and forth) in the neutral zone.

The players are confused and are hesitating.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I agree with this. But you can only go so far in coaching to get quick decisions. Some of these guys seem incapable of it. There’s very few one touch passes (Monahan actually does this the most).

I’ve insisted the Flames don’t go D to D. But they (and the low forwards) are slow in passing from every location, and their passing is off. And the D can only pass to where the Fs are, and too often they are strictly on the left side.

Agreed, they often do not use the second D especially through the neutral zone

They should, but often they instead choose to play on one side.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It is part of their structure to bunch the 3 forwards on one side.

Their systems make passing really difficult - too close together in their own zone, making it really easy for the opposition to forecheck, and all on one side (and usually standing still after the D have passed it back and forth) in the neutral zone.

The players are confused and are hesitating.

Did you see the Leafs using the option where the Center goes in a straight line down the middle and both wingers go wide?

Mind blowing option

It looks like it was drawn up on a table hockey board