The Deal With Geoff Ward

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by OldSam

What a pleasure hearing Versteeg so perfectly describe the Flames, their issues and the solution.

Where did you hear this? NM saw the post above

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I’m not accusing Versteeg of not watching games. I’m commenting on the description. Because it’s wrong. Go back and watch every single Ontario game.

Maybe they did it a bit less in Ontario - I haven't been running a game-by-game count, but they have definitely been doing it a lot, all year. And last year too.

Versteeg is not wrong here, you are.

[SeanCharles]

I’ve heard rumblings that the Flames won’t fire Ward this season because they are already paying for Peters to not coach the team.

This pisses me off but with the reality of the world we live in right now I’m not overly surprised.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

Flames are, ON PAPER, the second or third best team in this division.

The fact that they are seemingly the 7th best team in terms of actually putting in effort tells me that the coach or the system is broken.

The flames do less with more than almost any team in the league

I would love to see the data on actual distance skated, avg. speed while on ice, partnered with going to tough areas and all the retrieval stats. (no idea if this exists)

I think perhaps as Flames fans we over-rated how good this team is on paper.
Lack of consistency. Lack of elite talent. Lack of two-way players.

[Toonage]

^^ To be fair they've been paying another coach for each of the last 3 hires. This shouldn't make a difference.

Hartley paid while they pay Gully
Gully paid while they pay Peters
Peters paid while they pay Ward

No revenue however is what likely prevents a firing at this point. But paying two coaches at a time has never really been a roadblock for this franchise.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think perhaps as Flames fans we over-rated how good this team is on paper.
Lack of consistency. Lack of elite talent. Lack of two-way players.

Vastly overrating, I would say.

Who cares what you look like on paper if your players need heart and spine transplants. This team still is what it has been for many years.......wildly inconsistent and overrated.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Toonage

^^ To be fair they've been paying another coach for each of the last 3 hires. This shouldn't make a difference.

Hartley paid while they pay Gully
Gully paid while they pay Peters
Peters paid while they pay Ward

No revenue however is what likely prevents a firing at this point. But paying two coaches at a time has never really been a roadblock for this franchise.

Peters is still being paid, no? So it wouldn't be two, it would be three. Your new coach and two ex-coaches. Not sure if anyone can dig it up but it would be interesting to see in the past how many teams paid 3 coaches at the same time. I'm guessing it's happened before, but it must be rare.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

I’ve heard rumblings that the Flames won’t fire Ward this season because they are already paying for Peters to not coach the team.

This pisses me off but with the reality of the world we live in right now I’m not overly surprised.

Well they also signed Ward to a 2 year deal. So firing him 20 games into his tenure as full time coach probably doesn’t make sense either. This roster is the real coach killer. They listen for maybe one season and then go full autopilot the next.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think perhaps as Flames fans we over-rated how good this team is on paper.
Lack of consistency. Lack of elite talent. Lack of two-way players.

Where would you rank them in the Canadian division?

For me, Toronto is clear #1 but Calgary/Winnipeg should be competing for #2.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Peters is still being paid, no? So it wouldn't be two, it would be three. Your new coach and two ex-coaches. Not sure if anyone can dig it up but it would be interesting to see in the past how many teams paid 3 coaches at the same time. I'm guessing it's happened before, but it must be rare.

I was always under the impression Peters was a pay out. Here is your legally agreed upon severance now #### off kind of thing with him.

But still that cost had a direct effect on what Ward was paid (or any coach would have been at that time for the Flames).

So if Ward gets canned tomorrow, and a new guy comes in, I suspect its still only 2 coaches being paid.

[EVERLAST]

Versteeg as a head coach would be hilarious .

Can you imagine.....player X skates back to the bench.....Kris yells .....wow....you suck nobody in the league likes you.

Go pack your S.....your done here son.

[mile]

Craig Button on TSN 1260 yesterday again called out the Flames' coaching. Was very brief since most of the interview was about the Oilers, but made it clear that either the current coaching staff has to get better, or they have to get a different coach.


https://www.tsn.ca/radio/edmonton-12...tive-1.1601320
Near the end of this interview at the 9:25 mark. Nothing groundbreaking with what he said, but was happy to hear another person in the media talk about this.

Loved what Versteeg was talking about this morning. Really great stuff from him.

The Flames haven't fired Ward at this point, so I highly doubt any changes are coming unless a replacement is quarantining in secret.
And just saw the lines in practice today. Leivo with Gaudreau and Monahan and confirmed by Ward to be what the Flames start with. Sigh.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Toonage

I was always under the impression Peters was a pay out. Here is your legally agreed upon severance now #### off kind of thing with him.

But still that cost had a direct effect on what Ward was paid (or any coach would have been at that time for the Flames).

So if Ward gets canned tomorrow, and a new guy comes in, I suspect its still only 2 coaches being paid.

You could be right. I was always under the assumption that Peters was still being paid by the team, but I might be wrong.

[timbit]

I know. It’s a little repetitive.

When your best players are better than the opposition’s best players , your team will win minimally, 80-85 % of the time ...and vice versa. That why they get the big bucks.

The Flames record up to this point, verifies that IMO.

The lower line(s) , 3rd D pairing and 2nd goalie are there to limit goals against , help maintain tempo, and help chip in with some secondary offence.

However, they are 85-90 percent of the time, not the positive difference makers.

Go back and review the games, the Flames best players have not been good enough in 50-60 % of the games.

For the 40-50% of the time they have been better , the Flames have won!

IMO, a huge part of the poor start and record lies on their shoulders.

Consistent winning starts there. They need to be consistently better. A lot f’n better.

We can ramble on and there are some valid coaching questions being asked...but in the end, as we’ve ( I’ve) seen, the best players commitment to play their best decides wins and losses.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Toonage

^^ To be fair they've been paying another coach for each of the last 3 hires. This shouldn't make a difference.

Hartley paid while they pay Gully
Gully paid while they pay Peters
Peters paid while they pay Ward

No revenue however is what likely prevents a firing at this point. But paying two coaches at a time has never really been a roadblock for this franchise.

Kinda makes you wonder why they don’t try and hire a guy that will be good enough to be around long-term instead of hiring bargains and firing them and paying two bargains at any single time?

Wouldn’t two bargain coach contracts come close to a good coaches salary?

I don’t get how you can take the stance that coaching isn’t worth investing in.

Keep hiring assistants or coaches who have only coached in one place without much success.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

Kinda makes you wonder why they don’t try and hire a guy that will be good enough to be around long-term instead of hiring bargains and firing them and paying two bargains at any single time?

Wouldn’t two bargain coach contracts come close to a good coaches salary?

I don’t get how you can take the stance that coaching isn’t worth investing in.

You're absolutely right and this is one of the arguments we hear from guys like Pinder. Both for coaching and player salaries.

They aren't afraid to spend, its where and how that is the problem. Players yes, often to the detriment of the team. Coaches, not so much. Often to the detriment of the team.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Maybe they did it a bit less in Ontario - I haven't been running a game-by-game count, but they have definitely been doing it a lot, all year. And last year too.

Versteeg is not wrong here, you are.

I don’t think so. Just watch them - this is assumption and confirmation bias by a lot of people. And I agree with the same people who say this about other aspects of the system, especially defensively, so it’s not just me disagreeing.

They just don’t intentionally retreat to D to D passes absent a line change, or on rare occasions when they go to pass and the pass suddenly closes off.

Generally, they take what’s available. The issues come in the neutral zone. The forwards get funnelled and don’t try to avoid it. A lot of it has to do with weakness at RW on the top two lines. Some has to do with tunnel vision and tendencies that they revert to.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Where would you rank them in the Canadian division?

For me, Toronto is clear #1 but Calgary/Winnipeg should be competing for #2.

I think Toronto and Winnipeg are ahead of the group. I like Winnipeg's forward group a lot more with the strength up the middle and nice skill overall.

I think you then have a big ball of mediocre in the middle with Edmonton, Calgary, Montreal, and Vancouver.

Right now I'd be tempted to put Edmonton slightly ahead on the strength of McDavid. Though it's hard to ignore their terrible goaltending.

1. Toronto
2. Winnipeg
3-6: Edmonton, Calgary, Montreal, Vancouver
7: Ottawa

That's how I see it. Nothing puts Calgary ahead of that middle grouping.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Toonage

^^ To be fair they've been paying another coach for each of the last 3 hires. This shouldn't make a difference.

Hartley paid while they pay Gully
Gully paid while they pay Peters
Peters paid while they pay Ward

No revenue however is what likely prevents a firing at this point. But paying two coaches at a time has never really been a roadblock for this franchise.

NM - already addressed

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think Toronto and Winnipeg are ahead of the group. I like Winnipeg's forward group a lot more with the strength up the middle and nice skill overall.

I think you then have a big ball of mediocre in the middle with Edmonton, Calgary, Montreal, and Vancouver.

Right now I'd be tempted to put Edmonton slightly ahead on the strength of McDavid. Though it's hard to ignore their terrible goaltending.

1. Toronto
2. Winnipeg
3-6: Edmonton, Calgary, Montreal, Vancouver
7: Ottawa

That's how I see it. Nothing puts Calgary ahead of that middle grouping.

I can see that, except probably move Vancouver a notch down.
I don't think most Flames fans rank it too differently, maybe slightly.

Certainly doesn't seem that many fans over rate them though, not by any meaningful margin.