2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[Hells Bells]

Originally Posted by sketchyt

I disagree with underwhelming... I'd say underrated. Certainly from a top end standpoint there's no MacKinnon there, but Karlsson and Marchessault are a solid 1-2 punch. Very smart offensive players, with non stop motors and play decent 200 ft hockey. It would be like the Flames having two players of Monahan's production level.

Glass, Roy and Stephenson are also decent bottom sixers with Glass having offensive upside.

If anything, their C depth highlights the need for the Flames to acquire/develop another middle-6 C, at minimum.

Karlsson and Marchessault play together on the same line. Not a 1-2 punch at C.

Chandler Stephenson is their #2 C.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by sketchyt

I disagree with underwhelming... I'd say underrated. Certainly from a top end standpoint there's no MacKinnon there, but Karlsson and Marchessault are a solid 1-2 punch. Very smart offensive players, with non stop motors and play decent 200 ft hockey. It would be like the Flames having two players of Monahan's production level.

Glass, Roy and Stephenson are also decent bottom sixers with Glass having offensive upside.

If anything, their C depth highlights the need for the Flames to acquire/develop another middle-6 C, at minimum.

I think 1-2 punch is what the Flames were trying to achieve with Monahan and Lindholm and why they tried so hard to make it work. Another example is Bergeron-Krecji though Bergeron is arguably elite (just in a different way than constant PPG seasons). St. Louis is similar - O’Reilly isn’t a game breaker offensively - but he’s very good in both ends and Schenn is a threat at 2C.

One thing is clear to me though, to pull that off you usually need one or both of your two top lines to be able to go head to head against the opposing top line. Bergeron could compete against any top centre and play them evenly because most are not as good defensively. And then Krecji could feast on lesser opposition.

Oh and, yeah, Karlsson and Marchessault are usually on the same line.

[powderjunkie]

Scheifele has been PPG+ every season since '16-17. Monahan has done it once. Different tier.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Scheifele has been PPG+ every season since '16-17. Monahan has done it once. Different tier.

Not even one poster said they were on the same tier. The suggestion was Winnipeg had two better centres which means PLD was the comparison. A 3OA draft pick, ahead of Tkachuk and costing Laine and Roslovic (2OA and 25OA) better be better than Monahan. But he’s still got to prove it.

[SuperMatt18]

Hypothetical - if you’re Buffalo what would you want back as the centrepiece of a Eichel trade:

Kakko

Or

Turcotte

Or

Monahan

Personally I don’t think Zibanejad, or Byfield are actually going to be on the table from NYR or LAK.

Of the three I’m going Turcotte > Monahan > Kakko since Kakko has been downright bad at the NHL level so far.

But a lot of risk in Turcotte too who didn’t exactly light up the NCAA last year in his draft+1.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

No. No it isn't.

Yes, yes it is.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yes, yes it is.

I’m a big Monahan supporter but Tavares is the better player for sure IMO.

The question though is if Tavares is $4.5M better.

Tavares at $11M

Vs.

Monahan at $6.4M

That starts to become a much more fair question.

[Enoch Root]

Tavares' play has slipped a fair bit - some last year, and even more this year

He is getting much easier matchups, with Matthews/Marner getting all the attention, yet his impact continues to diminish.

To say that he is - this year - clearly better than Monahan is, well, more than a stretch.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I’m a big Monahan supporter but Tavares is the better player for sure IMO.

The question though is if Tavares is $4.5M better.

Tavares at $11M

Vs.

Monahan at $6.4M

That starts to become a much more fair question.

In the two recent games against Toronto, Monahan was the much better C.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Tavares' play has slipped a fair bit - some last year, and even more this year

He is getting much easier matchups, with Matthews/Marner getting all the attention, yet his impact continues to diminish.

To say that he is - this year - clearly better than Monahan is, well, more than a stretch.

I put a bigger emphasis on a longer term view, especially with COVID. I also kind of think his decline is overrated.

The last three seasons:

Tavares:
167GP
5v5: 48 Goals, 97 points
PP: 22 Goals, 48 points

Monahan:
168GP
5v5: 32 Goals, 82 points
PP: 23 goals, 45 points

So similar production on the PP, but Tavares has been the more productive 5v5 player. Plus overall I do think Tavares is better defensively.

However is that difference in production and performance worth the extra $4.5M that Tavares costs, I don’t think so.

Also since I was looking this up I just wanted to add that Monahan and Gaudreau being ineffective at 5v5 is overstated.

Gaudreau is 11th in the NHL at 5v5 points over the last three seasons (101 points) and Monahan is 40th (82 points).

[powderjunkie]

IMO of course, and not in particular order within tiers. Older guys...several could probably drop a tier, but I wouldn't write them off so fast

Tier1
MacKinnon McDavid Crosby

Tier 2
TBD: Matthews, Eichel, Draisaitl, Aho, Point,
PRIME: Barkov, ROR, Couturier, Scheifele, Zibanejad, Seguin
Malkin, Backstrom, Kopitar, Tavares, Toews, Getzlaf

Tier 3
TBD: Pettersson, Barzal, Dubois, Larkin, Hischier,
PRIME: Couture, Monahan, Horvat, Kuznetsov, Schenn, Hertl, Lindholm
Krejci, Stamkos & Giroux - not exactly pure C's


2nd Line C at best:
Johansen, K Hayes, RNH, Duchene, Strome, Strome, Domi, Trochek, Kadri, Backlund, Stastny


Vegas guys probably fit into tiers 2 & 3...I'm sure I'm missing a few others.

We can always argue about guys who are ascending, descending, stagnating, etc, but I think the prime groupings are pretty tough to argue about for the most part. Seguin and Zibanejad could probably fit in either 2 or 3...

That's 20 in tiers 1&2, and another 12-15 in tier 3 (a few questionable as pure C's). I think it's okay if there are a few more than 31 "#1C's" in the league.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Vegas? Monahan is a better C than any of their guys. Chandler Stephenson? Come on. You’d have to work to convince me Monahan is worse than Schenn or Kevin Hayes.

Got me on Vegas. I like the upside of Cody Glass a lot, but he's not at this moment an upgrade on Monahan.

Philly has gone the way of big, solid 2-way centers. Monahan has got Hayes offensively, but Hayes' overall game is better for Philly to win right now in the playoffs. Contract is awful, though.

STL, Schenn is a very comparable offensive player I just think he's got more game-breaking ability than Monahan.

[GioforPM]

^^

Pretty good though Matthews is knocking at the door and I may take him to build around over McDavid.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I put a bigger emphasis on a longer term view, especially with COVID. I also kind of think his decline is overrated.

The last three seasons:

Tavares:
167GP
5v5: 48 Goals, 97 points
PP: 22 Goals, 48 points

Monahan:
168GP
5v5: 32 Goals, 82 points
PP: 23 goals, 45 points

So similar production on the PP, but Tavares has been the more productive 5v5 player. Plus overall I do think Tavares is better defensively.

However is that difference in production and performance worth the extra $4.5M that Tavares costs, I don’t think so.

I generally do too.

But Tavares is 30. His weaker play over the last year may or may not be the decline from age, but until he proves otherwise, I am betting that it is.

And I disagree about him being better defensively.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I generally do too.

But Tavares is 30. His weaker play over the last year may or may not be the decline from age, but until he proves otherwise, I am betting that it is.

And I disagree about him being better defensively.

Aside from the obvious (Bergeron, O’Reilly or on the other end, McDavid) saying who’s better defensively is a tougher task, since defence is a team effort and one linemate can make another look pretty bad. People complained about Monahan’s D 3 on 3 but I think that was a bad matchup, Gio switching late and just some good speed by Nylander.

[SuperMatt18]

Back to the fun topic of Eichel vs Monahan. Not a lot separates their production at 5v5.

Eichel ($10 x 5.5 left)

162 GP, 34 Goals, 87 points

Monahan ($6.4 x 2.5 left)

168 GP, 32 Goals, 82 points

Honestly Monahan, Bennett, 1st, 3rd probably shouldn’t be that far off as a starting point with another little sweetener needed on Calgary’s side.

[Hells Bells]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

IMO of course, and not in particular order within tiers. Older guys...several could probably drop a tier, but I wouldn't write them off so fast

Tier1
MacKinnon McDavid Crosby

Tier 2
TBD: Matthews, Eichel, Draisaitl, Aho, Point,
PRIME: Barkov, ROR, Couturier, Scheifele, Zibanejad, Seguin
Malkin, Backstrom, Kopitar, Tavares, Toews, Getzlaf

Tier 3
TBD: Pettersson, Barzal, Dubois, Larkin, Hischier,
PRIME: Couture, Monahan, Horvat, Kuznetsov, Schenn, Hertl, Lindholm
Krejci, Stamkos & Giroux - not exactly pure C's


2nd Line C at best:
Johansen, K Hayes, RNH, Duchene, Strome, Strome, Domi, Trochek, Kadri, Backlund, Stastny


Vegas guys probably fit into tiers 2 & 3...I'm sure I'm missing a few others.

We can always argue about guys who are ascending, descending, stagnating, etc, but I think the prime groupings are pretty tough to argue about for the most part. Seguin and Zibanejad could probably fit in either 2 or 3...

That's 20 in tiers 1&2, and another 12-15 in tier 3 (a few questionable as pure C's). I think it's okay if there are a few more than 31 "#1C's" in the league.

Getzlaf can surely be moved down, guy looks terrible out there.

He's not even close to 2nd tier #1 C anymore.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

^^

Pretty good though Matthews is knocking at the door and I may take him to build around over McDavid.

Same, though I might take Barkov over either of them (contracts aside). I can't really look at McAvi or Matthews objectively though. Matthews probably does belong in that top tier now that I've looked at his numbers.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Back to the fun topic of Eichel vs Monahan. Not a lot separates their production at 5v5.

Eichel ($10 x 5.5 left)

162 GP, 34 Goals, 87 points

Monahan ($6.4 x 2.5 left)

168 GP, 32 Goals, 82 points

Honestly Monahan, Bennett, 1st, 3rd probably shouldn’t be that far off as a starting point with another little sweetener needed on Calgary’s side.

There is just no reason for Buffalo to do that.

[David Struch]

I wonder if people realize the Flames adding Sam Bennett to their offer is just like the Canucks adding Jake Virtanen to their offer?