2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I still think the best thing to do here is look at the Seguin, and Duchene packages to get an idea of what the starting point for Eichel.

Eichel (Seguin)

for

Monahan (Eriksson)
B Prospect - (Smith)
B Prospect - (Morrow)

or

Eichel (Duchene)

for

Monahan (Turris)
B Prospect (Shane Bowers)
Conditional 1st
Conditional 3rd

(Turris was then flipped for more pieces but this was the initial Ottawa-Colorado portion of the trade)

Probably a bit more for Eichel since he was better than Duchene or Seguin were at the time of the deal, but really I don't see a Lindros package happening here. The team trading the elite young player tends to always be disappointed in the return when these trades happen. Plus it's tough for any team to fit in $10M of cap space.

I think the Flames could make the following work cap wise.

Monahan
Bennett
2021 1st Round Pick
2021 3rd Round Pick (EDM)
Prospect

for

Eichel

Do you really think that’s the best offer Buffalo could get for Eichel?


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[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You said discounting Monahan because he plays with Gaudreau is just like discounting Kuznetsov because he plays with Ovechkin. Monahan and Kuznetsov score about the same points every year. You are telling me Kuznetsov benefits less from Ovechkin than Monahan does from Gaudreau? Laughable. If Monahan played with Ovechkin he’d do at least as well. Maybe more because they’d start with the puck more often.

The bolded is laughable.

What coach not named Geoff Ward would pair a shoot first (read: shoot-only, but limited range) center like Monahan with a triggerman like Ovi? I can tell you where Monahan would slot in the Caps lineup and it's not in the top 6 with their center depth.

Perhaps we just have different ideas of what makes an elite center. I say Monahan is (at best) a second line center on a contender that's paid like a top center. I would say Kuznetsov is an elite 2nd line center on a contender, and an undisputed top line center on ~10 other teams.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

...Perhaps we just have different ideas of what makes an elite center. I say Monahan is (at best) a second line center on a contender that's paid like a top center. I would say Kuznetsov is an elite 2nd line center on a contender, and an undisputed top line center on ~10 other teams.

It is worth noting that Sean Monahan is the #30 highest paid centre in the NHL. I would say that is a high-end second-line centre salary, and a low-end top-line centre salary. It feels just about right for Monahan, who is somewhere between an average top-line centre and a great second-line centre.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Do you really think that’s the best offer Buffalo could get for Eichel?


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Name a better deal and why the team would be making it. LA’s picks they could offer might be better, but they are rebuilding themselves and probably want to keep them. Plus they are paying Kopitar $10M for a few more years. I suppose they could send Carter the other way, but why would Buffalo want Carter?

[howard_the_duck]

His contract is by no means a problem. I just think he's miscast as a top-line center and when slotted more appropriately on the 2nd line, that's more than I'd pay for Monahan.

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

A. “Drives play” is such an overused and vague term. What you really mean is he doesn’t dangle. But Monahan is typically the outlet pass and a guy who decides where the play is going. Does he defer to Gaudreau to carry? Sure, why not?

B. Skates with the puck. No, not a lot, but more than I bet you are imagining.

C. Zone entry? Monahan and Gaudreau, when working well, are a one piece zone entry. Gaudreau's either crosses the blue line and passes right away to Monahan or he passes across the line to Monahan, who is skating up on it.

D. High Hockey IQ? Monahan has a great hockey IQ. I think it’s as high as Gaudreau’s. Monahan knows where to go, how to find soft spots, he passes very well in a cycle, he is the axis point in the power play because of it.

A) It is not an overused term. Dangle is not what I mean at all. When I say drive play I mean control pace, he has the skill set to handle the puck and know when to use speed, slow it down or use body position, to get to certain areas of the ice. All of the best centres excel at this.

B) Monahan may do it on occasion (although not very well) but it needs to at least be a viable threat, thus not only creating space for himself but his line mates. With JG being the only one who has the IQ and skillset to do it, it really hinders that line in tight checking playoff style hockey and the middle of the ice is easily neutralized.

C) Which is why they are so easy to shut down at even strength in the playoffs, teams exclusively focus on shutting down JG and his zone entries which leads to him taking a lot of abuse and the line generating next to nothing.

D) When I talk about the high hockey IQ I should have clarified. Monahan is good at finding soft spots and positioning himself in front of the net (although he struggles to do this in the playoffs). See point A, that is the hockey IQ aspect of the game I'm talking about, for a #1 C.

I'm not even sure how any open and honest Flames fan can say Monahan is the answer at #1 C, given the playoff failures and the repeated struggles not only to generate points but even any sustained pressure at even strength. I'm not concerned about him being one of the best Flames players when the bar is so low as is, come playoff time. I give my opinion based on assembling a team capable of winning the ultimate prize.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

His contract is by no means a problem. I just think he's miscast as a top-line center and when slotted more appropriately on the 2nd line, that's more than I'd pay for Monahan.

I think that is the problem though. Monahan is not mis-cast at all; he just happens to be not among the very best at his position. But he is also too good to be just a regular second line centre. Monahan is a $6.5–7.0 m player, and it doesn't matter the team he is playing for.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by CGY12

A) It is not an overused term. Dangle is not what I mean at all. When I say drive play I mean control pace, he has the skill set to handle the puck and know when to use speed, slow it down or use body position, to get to certain areas of the ice. All of the best centres excel at this.

B) Monahan may do it on occasion (although not very well) but it needs to at least be a viable threat, thus not only creating space for himself but his line mates. With JG being the only one who has the IQ and skillset to do it, it really hinders that line in tight checking playoff style hockey and the middle of the ice is easily neutralized.

C) Which is why they are so easy to shut down at even strength in the playoffs, teams exclusively focus on shutting down JG and his zone entries which leads to him taking a lot of abuse and the line generating next to nothing.

D) When I talk about the high hockey IQ I should have clarified. Monahan is good at finding soft spots and positioning himself in front of the net (although he struggles to do this in the playoffs). See point A, that is the hockey IQ aspect of the game I'm talking about, for a #1 C.

I'm not even sure how any open and honest Flames fan can say Monahan is the answer at #1 C, given the playoff failures and the repeated struggles not only to generate points but even any sustained pressure at even strength. I'm not concerned about him being one of the best Flames players when the bar is so low as is, come playoff time. I give my opinion based assembling a team capable of winning the ultimate prize.

It's baffling to me. 4 even strength goals, 13 even strength points in 30 playoff games. And not with a nothing cast, either.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

The bolded is laughable.

What coach not named Geoff Ward would pair a shoot first (read: shoot-only, but limited range) center like Monahan with a triggerman like Ovi? I can tell you where Monahan would slot in the Caps lineup and it's not in the top 6 with their center depth.

Perhaps we just have different ideas of what makes an elite center. I say Monahan is (at best) a second line center on a contender that's paid like a top center. I would say Kuznetsov is an elite 2nd line center on a contender, and an undisputed top line center on ~10 other teams.

Laughable? I think not. Monahan is a very good puck distributor in the offensive zone. He’s on his typical .75 PPG pace right now, even without scoring, and if you haven’t noticed, he’s made some very nice setups to Gaudreau as trigger man. You think Ovechkin wouldn’t bury those passes?

As for where Monahan would slot on the Caps, the assumption is that Kuznetsov, who is currently their 2C, is not on the team. So where now? You say Kuz is an elite 2nd line centre (whatever the hell that means) but is a 1C on 10 teams. I’d bet Monahan is 1C on most, if not all of those as well. Chicago, Detroit, Nashville, Columbus, AZ, NYR, Ottawa, Anaheim, Minnie, Vegas.

I’ve said that neither Gaudreau or Monahan are guys who you fear in the POs, hence a need for a strong alternate line around Lindholm. But Monahan is still underrated for what he can do, which is not just shooting. His game is underrated. Gaudreau’s is a little overrated here, as well.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CGY12

A) It is not an overused term. Dangle is not what I mean at all. When I say drive play I mean control pace, he has the skill set to handle the puck and know when to use speed, slow it down or use body position, to get to certain areas of the ice. All of the best centres excel at this.

B) Monahan may do it on occasion (although not very well) but it needs to at least be a viable threat, thus not only creating space for himself but his line mates. With JG being the only one who has the IQ and skillset to do it, it really hinders that line in tight checking playoff style hockey and the middle of the ice is easily neutralized.

C) Which is why they are so easy to shut down at even strength in the playoffs, teams exclusively focus on shutting down JG and his zone entries which leads to him taking a lot of abuse and the line generating next to nothing.

D) When I talk about the high hockey IQ I should have clarified. Monahan is good at finding soft spots and positioning himself in front of the net (although he struggles to do this in the playoffs). See point A, that is the hockey IQ aspect of the game I'm talking about, for a #1 C.

I'm not even sure how any open and honest Flames fan can say Monahan is the answer at #1 C, given the playoff failures and the repeated struggles not only to generate points but even any sustained pressure at even strength. I'm not concerned about him being one of the best Flames players when the bar is so low as is, come playoff time. I give my opinion based on assembling a team capable of winning the ultimate prize.

I have argued the opposite, that Monahan by himself at 1C is not the answer. That’s why they’ve been using Lindholm at 1C, trying to create two top lines that are both not elite but are roughly equal. BUT that doesn’t detract from the point that Monahan is still not given enough respect for what he does, just because he does it without flash.

[Calgary4LIfe]

LA's potential offer would be interesting. Byfield included in the deal might be an attractive proposition for Buffalo, though I think that LA still has to up the package substantially.


I also think that in any deal between Calgary and Buffalo, I figure Tkachuk would be part of it. I am ok with that. Do I want a 9 million dollar Tkachuk on the roster, or do I want a 10 million Eichel? I think I pick the latter as having a much great chance of making that contract affordable relative to performance.


Tkachuk +. Not sure how much you keep adding to that +, but I am sure it is substantial.


Having Eichel - Monahan - Backlund as your centre depth, while also having Lindholm and Bennett who can both play centre effectively in the top 6 and in the bottom 6 respectively, makes this a very competitive team. You can then swap around your wingers - maybe keep Gaudreau with Monahan, or try him with Eichel.



A little off-topic - I didn't see Ward try Gaudreau - Lindholm and Tkachuk - Monahan combos 5on5. We saw Gaudreau playing with Lindholm when Monahan was injured, but that's not the same thing as the focus from the other teams would be all over that line (with Tkachuk). Would have been interesting to see the different dynamics there.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by CGY12

I'm not even sure how any open and honest Flames fan can say Monahan is the answer at #1 C, given the playoff failures and the repeated struggles not only to generate points but even any sustained pressure at even strength.

I don't think anyone besides super homers think Monahan is a great #1 centre.

The question is how good is Eichel. He honestly seems more hyped than his actual impact on the ice.

What is better Monahan + Tkachuk + futures or Eichel. I also think that on the 2% chance anything actually happened it would probably be Lindholm + Tkachuk or something like that and not Monahan.

All I know if Eichel was producing in Calgary like he was in Buffalo and the Flames gave up Lindholm + Tkachuk then people would be going nuts.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Do you really think that’s the best offer Buffalo could get for Eichel?


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I think people will be surprised at what it takes, just like they were with Seguin, and ROR both times.

Duchene was the only one where people thought that it was a good return for the young center.

It's not easy to fit in a $10M contract. And it's not easy to make a trade like this work.

If Buffalo ends up getting Monahan, Bennett, Zary, 1st, 3rd for Eichel for example then I'd say that's a better return than any Seguin, ROR, or Duchene were able to garner.

And as I said it depends on what Buffalo wants in return. If they want a proven top 6 center in return there are not a lot of options on the table.

- Zibanejad
- Monahan
- ???

If it's purely going to be a futures deal then I think the Kings are the favourites as they are one of the only teams with both the assets and cap space to take on Eichel.

But if the Sabres want a center in return then the options become more limited.

Originally Posted by Bonded

I don't think anyone besides super homers think Monahan is a great #1 centre.

The question is how good is Eichel. He honestly seems more hyped than his actual impact on the ice.

What is better Monahan + Tkachuk + futures or Eichel. I also think that on the 2% chance anything actually happened it would probably be Lindholm + Tkachuk or something like that and not Monahan.

All I know if Eichel was producing in Calgary like he was in Buffalo and the Flames gave up Lindholm + Tkachuk then people would be going nuts.

It's not costing Monahan+Tkachuk+Futures or Lindholm+Tkachuk+Futures to get Eichel.

Eichel is great and has huge potential but in the end he's pretty much just a PPG center that hasn't been in the discussion for the Hart or any league trophies really. He's not McDavid or Matthews level at this point of his career.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

LA's potential offer would be interesting. Byfield included in the deal might be an attractive proposition for Buffalo, though I think that LA still has to up the package substantially.


I also think that in any deal between Calgary and Buffalo, I figure Tkachuk would be part of it. I am ok with that. Do I want a 9 million dollar Tkachuk on the roster, or do I want a 10 million Eichel? I think I pick the latter as having a much great chance of making that contract affordable relative to performance.


Tkachuk +. Not sure how much you keep adding to that +, but I am sure it is substantial.


Having Eichel - Monahan - Backlund as your centre depth, while also having Lindholm and Bennett who can both play centre effectively in the top 6 and in the bottom 6 respectively, makes this a very competitive team. You can then swap around your wingers - maybe keep Gaudreau with Monahan, or try him with Eichel.

The problem with that, and the problem I keep seeing with a lot of these proposals, is that they don't make us better today and it's questionable if they make us better tomorrow.

We'd be considerably light on the wings in the short term, and either lose Gaudreau shortly after, or re-sign him and part ways with one of Lindholm or Backlund, plus a couple of Mangiapane, Dube, and Bennett. Not to mention the defence.

Acquiring Eichel triggers a domino effect which will lead to a very different looking roster in as short as a year or two. Not that it's a bad thing, but important to keep in mind when we're busy imagining who would play with who.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I think that is the problem though. Monahan is not mis-cast at all; he just happens to be not among the very best at his position. But he is also too good to be just a regular second line centre. Monahan is a $6.5–7.0 m player, and it doesn't matter the team he is playing for.

Here are teams around the NHL that I don't think Monahan fits even as a 2nd line C:

Tampa
St. Louis
Toronto
Las Vegas
Washington
Edmonton
Philly
Pittsburgh
Vancouver (debatable)
Winnipeg

So no, I wouldn't call him an elite 2nd line C even. If we're going off his production based on his 1st line minutes and PP usage, then yes those numbers will stack up favorably for him. But on those teams, debates to be had on Vegas and Vancouver, I just don't see him inside the top 6.

This, to me, is the crux of the issue. Our top guy at center is on par or inferior to the 2nd best center on contending teams.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I think people will be surprised at what it takes, just like they were with Seguin, and ROR both times.

Duchene was the only one where people thought that it was a good return for the young center.

It's not easy to fit in a $10M contract. And it's not easy to make a trade like this work.

If Buffalo ends up getting Monahan, Bennett, Zary, 1st, 3rd for Eichel for example then I'd say that's a better return than any Seguin, ROR, or Duchene were able to garner.

And as I said it depends on what Buffalo wants in return. If they want a proven top 6 center in return there are not a lot of options on the table.

- Zibanejad
- Monahan
- ???

If it's purely going to be a futures deal then I think the Kings are the favourites as they are one of the only teams with both the assets and cap space to take on Eichel.

But if the Sabres want a center in return then the options become more limited.



It's not costing Monahan+Tkachuk+Futures or Lindholm+Tkachuk+Futures to get Eichel.

Eichel is great and has huge potential but in the end he's pretty much just a PPG center that hasn't been in the discussion for the Hart or any league trophies really. He's not McDavid or Matthews level at this point of his career.

I’m sure they want a centre coming back so they have a team they can put on the ice. After Eichel they have Reinhart who hasn’t even played C for the majority of his time. But they aren’t getting a top C.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Eichel is great and has huge potential but in the end he's pretty much just a PPG center that hasn't been in the discussion for the Hart or any league trophies really. He's not McDavid or Matthews level at this point of his career.

I agree with you but if he did that cost that I don't think it make sense.

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I have argued the opposite, that Monahan by himself at 1C is not the answer. That’s why they’ve been using Lindholm at 1C, trying to create two top lines that are both not elite but are roughly equal. BUT that doesn’t detract from the point that Monahan is still not given enough respect for what he does, just because he does it without flash.

That in itself is the problem. Both would be quality 2nd line centres but neither of them is capable of having the impact required to be a 1st line centre on a Stanley Cup contending team, IMO. The playoff results prove this. The respect issue, sure can be debated either way, but like I said my opinion is strictly based on assembling a championship team.

Originally Posted by Bonded

I don't think anyone besides super homers think Monahan is a great #1 centre.

The question is how good is Eichel. He honestly seems more hyped than his actual impact on the ice.

What is better Monahan + Tkachuk + futures or Eichel. I also think that on the 2% chance anything actually happened it would probably be Lindholm + Tkachuk or something like that and not Monahan.

All I know if Eichel was producing in Calgary like he was in Buffalo and the Flames gave up Lindholm + Tkachuk then people would be going nuts.

I don't know what it would take to get Eichel, probably a lot, i'm not suggesting trading away our entire core, a trade is probably not realistic. I chimed in here because I saw some suggest Monahan is on a similar level, which I couldn't disagree with more.

Buffalo isn't a good team, they've had a hard time bringing in the appropriate players to turn the franchise around but that doesn't deter from the fact Eichel is that good. I think his spirit has taken a massive beating over time, its the one thing I've noticed watching the Sabres repeatedly this year, he still plays at a high level but he's lost that pep in his step.

Unfortunately I have this high propensity to bet on the Sabre games, whether its O/U, moneyline or team/player props, so I've watched them quite a bit (I also live in Toronto now) and he is absolutely a stud #1 C. He needs out to reinvigorate his enthusiasm, but as is, he is still elite and better than anything we've see here at #1 C in a long long time.

[Jason14h]

The legend of Eichel grows by the day

Doesn't anyone think he IS a large part of the reason Buffalo stinks?

They bring in Skinner to play with him after a 40 goal year - Stinks
They bring in Hall to play with him - Stinks

This guy has 1 ES goal this season.

I'm not saying he isn't good, or wouldn't be on paper our best center by a mile - But what has he ever done to show he is going to be the guy to lead a franchise? If anything, he has shown the opposite

[Tbull8]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

The legend of Eichel grows by the day

Anyone think he IS the reason Buffalo stucks?

They bring in Skinner to play with him after a 40 goal year - Stinks
They bring in Hall to play with him - Stinks

This guy has 1 ES goal this season.

I'm not saying he isn't good, or wouldn't be on paper our best center by a mile - But what has he ever done to show he is going to be the guy to lead a franchise? If anything, he has shown the opposite

Skinner scored 40 playing with him