[News] All-encompassing Bennett trade discussions thread

[Red]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Leivo and Simon signed the deals they did because they were the best available for them.

Both had their opportunity there before Bennett. Both squandered it.

And Bennett earned it?

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

He put himself in the correct position to score those goals.

The goal vs the Oilers was hardly a tap-in... he had to squeeze the puck through the almost closed 5 hole.

LOL. Re-watch the goal. He put it on net it was a bang bang play.

I'm not anti-Sam overall, I just think the apologists citing his production on the top line this season are overstating things.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Red

And Bennett earned it?

Yes. He's done more than anyone else in that position.

Like it or not, Lucic and Bennett are our 8th and 9th best forwards (order debatable). They are 8th and 9th in ATOI. Not sure what the fuss is.

[Flamenspiel]

At this point Bennett is no worse then an average performer on the team, no need to trade him now and that would really be like preventing a sinking ship by removing water with a spoon.

[Flamenspiel]

Keep everything intact till the trade deadline, trade a few veterans and transition in a new regime towards the end of the season.

Again it’s a great year to tank because there is no STH revenue and no gate receipts anyway.

[Red]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Yes. He's done more than anyone else in that position.

Like it or not, Lucic and Bennett are our 8th and 9th best forwards (order debatable). They are 8th and 9th in ATOI. Not sure what the fuss is.

He was a black hole with 2 points when he replaced Leivo/Simon. His agent fired the first shot about ice time and the team obliged.
He has played a lot more than them with marginally better results.

My point is, right or wrong, these guys might see a guy that wants to get traded getting in the way of their next contract. It's unfair to them.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Sam at this point is likely not to be qualified and highly likely to be exposed and taken by Seattle. So getting a 2nd or 3rd for him makes sense to me.

[RedHawk12]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Have you ever interviewed for another job but then decided you didn't want to change?

People do this - it isn't some kind of an attack on the current employer.

Some of you act like he tore his jersey in two and threw it on the ice

To be honest...no. But that might just be me though.

If Bennett needs to do something so stupid like tear his jersey and throw it on the ice to convince you that he wants out, I don't really know what to tell you.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Sam at this point is likely not to be qualified and highly likely to be exposed and taken by Seattle. So getting a 2nd or 3rd for him makes sense to me.

More room for the Leivo, Simon, Nordstrom, and Robinsons of the world!



...but yeah, at this stage just get what you can. I believe similar approaches should be taken with a number of players on this roster. Rip it down.

[Red]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

More room for the Leivo, Simon, Nordstrom, and Robinsons of the world!



...but yeah, at this stage just get what you can. I believe similar approaches should be taken with a number of players on this roster. Rip it down.

They don't make a lot more combined than Sam

[SeeGeeWhy]

Why is it worth tanking the season based on an assumption that Seattle will take Bennett? Who else would they take if he wasn’t on the roster?

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Red

They don't make a lot more combined than Sam

Sam has scored infinitely more goals than them, so that makes sense.

Originally Posted by SeeGeeWhy

Why is it worth tanking the season based on an assumption that Seattle will take Bennett? Who else would they take if he wasn’t on the roster?

If we're really lucky? Backlund. If Bennett is still here, I'd STILL protect Bennett over Backlund, even if a few days later we weren't qualifying him. Anything to get Backlund's contract off the books and help usher in a new era with a new leadership group.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Red

You mocked +/- while quoting advanced stats to show how important Bennett is. That's far from facts.

Advanced stats?

What? I don't believe I posted anything advanced.

Shots on goal by a player
Unblocked shot attempts by a player
Goals by a player versus the number of goals their chances would expect
Hits taken by a player
Shots blocked by a player

these are not advanced stats.

they are most certainly indicator of things done by a player though, unlike plus minus.

[Red]

Expected goals for and unblocked shot attempts are what I was talking about.
Are these not what we would consider advanced? If so, I retract my comment. Any time I see expected this, attempted that I assume it's part of the advanced stats book of hockey analysis.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Advanced stats?

What? I don't believe I posted anything advanced.

Shots on goal by a player
Unblocked shot attempts by a player
Goals by a player versus the number of goals their chances would expect
Hits taken by a player
Shots blocked by a player

these are not advanced stats.

they are most certainly indicator of things done by a player though, unlike plus minus.

I would argue that expected goals are very much an advanced stat since it involves regression analysis of data based of different shot characteristics.

(Edited out an opinion not based upon n research)

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Red

Expected goals for and unblocked shot attempts are what I was talking about.
Are these not what we would consider advanced? If so, I retract my comment. Any time I see expected this, attempted that I assume it's part of the advanced stats book of hockey analysis.

I suppose expected goals might be consider somewhat advanced for the reasons edslunch noted, but at the end of thr day the stat I posted is still an individual stat, not some fancy microstat, on-ice stat, relative stat, or especially complicated impact advanced stat that might be far more open to interpretation. Where a player's shots are coming from crossed with the volume of those shots... I think that's a pretty simple thing to discuss, unlike plus minus. That's all I see xG as. You control your expected goals by taking more shots and taking them from more apparently dangerous areas. You don't control your plus minus.

As for unblocked shot attempts? I think that's as unadvanced as it gets. It's just your shot attempts leaving your stick that were not blocked.

[Mass_nerder]

One thing that Bennett does really well on that top line is win 50/50 battles. He hustles his bag off to get to loose pucks, and that's something Johnny and Monny don't really seem to do very well.
The problem is once he gets the puck, he doesn't really seem to be able to get his linemates the puck.

[OILFAN #81]

Originally Posted by Buzzard

Just for fun...you're Ken Holland. What would you'd give to get him?

A draft pick from 2022. Conditional 3rd that could be a 2nd based on stats.

[Red]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I suppose expected goals might be consider somewhat advanced for the reasons edslunch noted, but at the end of thr day the stat I posted is still an individual stat, not some fancy microstat, on-ice stat, relative stat, or especially complicated impact advanced stat that might be far more open to interpretation. Where a player's shots are coming from crossed with the volume of those shots... I think that's a pretty simple thing to discuss, unlike plus minus. That's all I see xG as. You control your expected goals by taking more shots and taking them from more apparently dangerous areas. You don't control your plus minus.

The hard stats say he has 3 goals and is a team worst - 8. That's his contribution and that's what Warrener brought up.

I will take +/- with a grain of salt. But it's a stat of past events. Those stats are a correct representation of what happened.
Your stats are projections and vague expectations of future events.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Red

The hard stats say he has 3 goals and is a team worst - 8. That's his contribution and that's what Warrener brought up.

How does one "contribute" minus 8? Is he interfering on his own goalie 12+ times to ensure the other team scores?

I will take +/- with a grain of salt. But it's a stat of past events. Those stats are a correct representation of what happened.

what is it, specifically that happened that those stats correctly represent?

Your stats are projections and vague expectations of future events.

None of my stats are projections. Not a single one. When I say Bennett has 3.41 expected goals vs 3 actual goals - I mean to say that these are past events. There's no projecting going on. Those scoring chances and shot attempts and goals actually happened. Expected goals is simply a way of coming shot volume with shot location (and other basic factors like rebounds).

And again, three 5v5 goals is not a poor stat relative to the rest of the roster. The single best goal scorer on the team only has double that.

Plus minus does not tell you anything about an individual's play, whether that player is McDavid or Nesterov or Bennett or whomever. It doesn't even tell you a lot about team play given the randomness of goal events.