[PGT] Leafs 2 Flames 1

[theinfinitejar]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Also, Monahan doesn't deserve a pass for the goal in OT, but Gio is getting way too much slack around here. The guy is no where near the level of play he maintained even last year, let alone Norris season.

He’s 37, this was always coming. Father Time is undefeated.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

This.

Hanifin is our best skating defencemen and one of the best skaters in the league. Doesn't make it on the ice for 3-on-3.

I love Ras, but Hanifin should be our first, if not close 2nd, option for D in OT. Gio would be my 4th option.

Hanafin and Andersson should be getting the bulk of the shifts in OT. Valimaki can probably be more effective 3 on 3 than Gio.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Man Loubardias seems like a nice guy and all,but I can't even listen to him anymore. Flat out turn off the radio when I have to hear his take, which is basically exactly the same regardless how the team is doing.

I was thinking about this yesterday. He's degenerated into an apologist. Even as we speak Pinder is kind of sitting back here and telling him he doesn't' know where Loubardias is going here with is rant that it's the player's fault not the coach. Totally awkward and his voice is grating.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I was thinking about this yesterday. He's degenerated into an apologist. Even as we speak Pinder is kind of sitting back here and telling him he doesn't' know where Loubardias is going here. Totally awkward and his voice is grating.

Seriously!

He's been terrible. He's the expert analyst we get to listen to?? Dude doesn't even take any hard opinions on anything.

[GioforPM]

I wouldn’t question Gio being out in OT - you can run out of D pretty quickly and he still knows what to do. But I do think he and Monahan shouldn’t be out at the same time.

Anyway, like I said, almost any goal in OT is a mistake by someone, and mistakes on individual plays don’t bug me, unless they are constantly repeated by the same guy.

[Cowtownred]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Seriously!

He's been terrible. He's the expert analyst we get to listen to?? Dude doesn't even take any hard opinions on anything.

He talks in riddles. I really believe he is too close to Ward, to criticize him. I think he was close to hanging the phone up.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by theinfinitejar

I have said many very not nice things about players and staff in the Flames organization over the years on this website and others, but I don't believe I've ever said a player doesn't care or lacks commitment. If I did I'm sorry because this stuff is bull ####. That's crossing the line from criticism of players and staff which I think fans have every right to do, to questioning the character of someone you don't know the first thing about besides what you see on the TV. It's garbage and it makes for a toxic fan base.

It's not bull ####, and it most definitely is not a character issue. Elite-level professional athletes are the most competitive people on earth. They can do things almost no one else can, and in large part because they worked their asses off to be as good as they are. But within tbe top 0.001% not all players are created equal; not everyone will or can put themselves in the right frame of mind to win consistently, and that's fine. It doesn't mean they are lazy, or entitled, or weak-minded. It is just an observation that some players are more consistently negatively affected by adversity than others. It is what it is. Some players figure it out and move on. Some don't.

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[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Yeah, for sure, you will see what you want to

Nothing on the inverse correlation of Kiprusoff’s stats? Do you remember styles of play differing in any way under each coach?

It’s really blatantly obvious that there is correlation between coach and player performance

I can’t take it seriously if you pretend to make a case otherwise

Do you remember those years and peoples’ impressions of the players? So very many people here were talking about Kipper not being the goalie he used to be with Keenan, hoping for a ‘return to form’. It was dumb then and it’s dumb now.


Coach is fine, because the Flames have had ... several lousy coaches now. It’s the core. :eye roll:

LOL - that’s what you are taking from those stats? That Brent Sutter was defensive or something?

If you look at the Flames’ record, notwithstanding all those different coaches, the results varied by 8 points, aside from the first year after the lockout under Darryl. The team never cracked 100 under any of those coaches. Mike Keenan and Brent Sutter both coached to 94 points. Goals against didn’t vary much and Brent Sutter had a season of goals for about as high as under Keenan and Playfair, bracketed by two lower ones.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by theinfinitejar

Somebody tell the Panthers. They’re spending a bunch of money for nothing apparently, they’d be in first with any old idiot behind the bench.

It is pretty amazing how their fortunes turned with the discovery of a goalie who showed up to play most nights. Very eerily similar to what happened in St Louis the year they won the Cup.

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[Gaskal]

Personally wouldn't have given a smidgeon of icetime to Tanev or Gio in OT. Should've let Kylington loose.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

LOL - that’s what you are taking from those stats? That Brent Sutter was defensive or something?

If you look at the Flames’ record, notwithstanding all those different coaches, the results varied by 8 points, aside from the first year after the lockout under Darryl. The team never cracked 100 under any of those coaches. Mike Keenan and Brent Sutter both coached to 94 points. Goals against didn’t vary much and Brent Sutter had a season of goals for about as high as under Keenan and Playfair, bracketed by two lower ones.

Glad you are finding whatever funny. Different players get different results because of how the team is coached.

You mention Brent. Yes, he had a year where the team was more offensive. First year he believed that reeling everything in was the way to succeed. Second year, he reflected that perhaps he focused too much on defense and opened things up. Third year, he realized that didn’t work did him so he went back to his junior / NJ style and got frustrated and beat up a garbage can

Nobody out of these coaches got it perfect, but they all sure put their stamp in the team. And had varying degrees of success

This roster has the talent to be a top team in the league. We know because we have seen it. Then they changed the way they play. Not because they tuned out the coach, because they were trying to implement the game plan

As for being a top team? Should be, based on the lineup. Not happening under this coach

I’ll defer to Versteeg. He knows that coaching makes a material difference

Again, this was in response to Jiri’s asking me why I think the failure of team to achieve to its potential is more on coach than players. (And I acknowledge that you need both doing a good job to win)

I just don’t buy the view that players are mentally fragile, or that a young pretty good roster needs to be blown up.

And I was wondering if it was just the reality that you can’t just change a coach to fix things, if that was a contributor to why people are inclined to look elsewhere for the solution.

Because when you have something that looks like it may be hopeless, and you are stuck with it, well... that’s no good

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It is pretty amazing how their fortunes turned with the discovery of a goalie who showed up to play most nights. Very eerily similar to what happened in St Louis the year they won the Cup.

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Wish that was having a greater impact here.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Wish that was having a greater impact here.

Don't we all.

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[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

Personally wouldn't have given a smidgeon of icetime to Tanev or Gio in OT. Should've let Kylington loose.

I thought Kylington had some nice bursts of speed. I even almost said, “wow, Kylington is doing really good out there!”

And then he blew a tire in the corner .

I think at this point you’ve got to roll with Andersson/Hanifin/Valimaki as your top 3 D to go out there in OT.

[genetic_phreek]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

Personally wouldn't have given a smidgeon of icetime to Tanev or Gio in OT. Should've let Kylington loose.

With 3 on 3 I'm surprised we don't use more fast skating guys.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Glad you are finding whatever funny. Different players get different results because of how the team is coached.

You mention Brent. Yes, he had a year where the team was more offensive. First year he believed that reeling everything in was the way to succeed. Second year, he reflected that perhaps he focused too much on defense and opened things up. Third year, he realized that didn’t work did him so he went back to his junior / NJ style and got frustrated and beat up a garbage can

Nobody out of these coaches got it perfect, but they all sure put their stamp in the team. And had varying degrees of success

This roster has the talent to be a top team in the league. We know because we have seen it. Then they changed the way they play. Not because they tuned out the coach, because they were trying to implement the game plan

As for being a top team? Should be, based on the lineup. Not happening under this coach

I’ll defer to Versteeg. He knows that coaching makes a material difference

Again, this was in response to Jiri’s asking me why I think the failure of team to achieve to its potential is more on coach than players. (And I acknowledge that you need both doing a good job to win)

I just don’t buy the view that players are mentally fragile, or that a young pretty good roster needs to be blown up.

And I was wondering if it was just the reality that you can’t just change a coach to fix things, if that was a contributor to why people are inclined to look elsewhere for the solution.

Because when you have something that looks like it may be hopeless, and you are stuck with it, well... that’s no good

Coaching can make a difference. On rare occasions. But your opinion this should be a top team? That’s a stretch. I agree with Jiri. This team has an elite goalie, a good D and a suspect forward group.

Their top forwards have skills that, if they are defended badly, can result in lots of nice goals. But those same forwards have flaws and are easily predictable, and that makes them not that difficult to defend. Johnny is small and not that fast, and teams have learned they can play him tight. Monahan is slow and doesn’t dangle, so teams know he can be controlled if he doesn’t get a pass. Tkachuk is even slower than Monahan and needs to be within a foot or two of the goal because he doesn’t really have a great shot.

Other teams that they need to beat have more well rounded top end forwards. Matthews does it all. Scheifele does it all. McDavid is predictable but he manages to beat guys that know what he’s going to do just with pure physical ability, like Jordan dunking.

A better coach can win a couple more games with these guys, and maybe even make a difference over a season. Long term is where I have my doubts.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Coaching can make a difference. On rare occasions. But your opinion this should be a top team? That’s a stretch. I agree with Jiri. This team has an elite goalie, a good D and a suspect forward group.

Their top forwards have skills that, if they are defended badly, can result in lots of nice goals. But those same forwards have flaws and are easily predictable, and that makes them not that difficult to defend. Johnny is small and not that fast, and teams have learned they can play him tight. Monahan is slow and doesn’t dangle, so teams know he can be controlled if he doesn’t get a pass. Tkachuk is even slower than Monahan and needs to be within a foot or two of the goal because he doesn’t really have a great shot.

Other teams that they need to beat have more well rounded top end forwards. Matthews does it all. Scheifele does it all. McDavid is predictable but he manages to beat guys that know what he’s going to do just with pure physical ability, like Jordan dunking.

A better coach can win a couple more games with these guys, and maybe even make a difference over a season. Long term is where I have my doubts.

Yes, we likely disagree.

I think the team is capable of something closer to the results they got in the first 3/4 season of 2 years ago than the .500 bone dry ineffective hockey that we are seeing now.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Yes, we likely disagree.

I think the team is capable of something closer to the results they got in the first 3/4 season of 2 years ago than the .500 bone dry ineffective hockey that we are seeing now.

The team is definitely better than what we have seen for the last several games, and I am confident that they will still have good stretches this season. But man, when they struggle it is so ugly.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Yes, we likely disagree.

I think the team is capable of something closer to the results they got in the first 3/4 season of 2 years ago than the .500 bone dry ineffective hockey that we are seeing now.

They are obviously capable of that because they did it (or course, subject to Gio being half the guy he was, Johnny being afraid to cut in to the goal). But isn’t that the point - they can play better but then they always seem to revert. tell me what Peters did differently in that had them limp into the POs and lose. They did similar things under GG and, for a shorter period, under Ward.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

The team is definitely better than what we have seen for the last several games, and I am confident that they will still have good stretches this season. But man, when they struggle it is so ugly.

Hopefully starting soon!

If they stink up the next 4 games against Ottawa, I don’t think I want to see the implosion here