People are just very frustrated, which is why some are putting no thought at all into the situation. A clear case in point ...
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To be fair, I’ve given it plenty of thought and analysis. Too much really. I was very disappointed in the choice of Ward in the summer and personally I thought the poor results were obvious and changes should have been made 2 weeks ago.
At this point, who coaches for the next week or two doesn’t matter to me. Who coaches for the next 3 years and actually gets the team to perform to their potential does.
I’m not saying that Montreal’s fired coaches are the answer either. It just adds 2 more potential choices. Thing is, I can put as much thought into it as I want but I can’t seem to convince the Flames anyway. Fact is, I certainly won’t get the chance to interview and choose a new coach.
As a fan, I do know how I feel and what I want. I don’t feel like this coaching staff can deliver. I want the team to play a system more suitable to the players we have. I believe that would be a team with a much faster transition from defense to offense, out of the zone with a better break out and ability to get through the NZ. A style that plays more in the middle of the offensive zone and less around the perimeter and boards, that has the goalie moving cross crease a lot more and with more traffic in the middle. I want a coach that has the team ready to play, makes good adjustments, and knows how to get top performances out of the best players.
I did not feel like Ward was that guy at the end of last season. I’m quite open minded so I have watched how the choice went. I don’t like it. If we win 5 in a row, I still won’t like the system. We need both a better tactician and better motivator.
So to me, doesn’t matter who is the interim coach as it would be short lived. Fact is, if I was making the decision, the only coaches that survived the shuffle would firstly have to fit with whoever is the new head coach and secondly, already be telling me why the current systems and player management aren’t working.
Thing is, I have given it plenty of thought. A ridiculous amount considering I can have no bearing on changing it. I don’t even know why I have to follow so closely and read Puck all the time etc. I’ve been a Flames fan since 1980 and have seen all iterations of the team. It’s a strange addiction.
Overall, this is one of the better teams we have had from goalie out. We are, unfortunately a piece or 2 short of being extremely good. Partly the result of Covid and no cap increase Id say. Another $4MM would have gone a long way. Still, the current style of play and inability to have the team ready and make in game and game to game adjustments sells our current player group way short in my opinion.
For me, I believe we have already taken too long to deal with this. So, the best time to make a change is now. Who will coach for 2-3 weeks is not an issue to me. Who will coach and get top performance for 3 years? That is a question for thought and analysis.
For sure- taking into account last season he actually has a stronger resume in my opinion. I'm just saying that they made the decision to hire him full time 19 games ago.
I've seen arguments that Montreal fired their coach so why can't Calgary? Big difference is Ward is 19 games into his contract and Julien was 277 games into his. His contract was up this season and they were likely making a change in the off season regardless.
If that's the kind of leash our management team is going to give, it's a bad look to the rest of the league and to potential free agents- coaches and players.
I believe the Flames are already paying Peters not to coach this season. There is absolutely no way they will choose to pay for Ward to do the same while adding another coach's salary to the books.
For all people's frustration and complaints about Ward, he is NOT getting replaced at any point during this season.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
For sure- taking into account last season he actually has a stronger resume in my opinion. I'm just saying that they made the decision to hire him full time 19 games ago.
I've seen arguments that Montreal fired their coach so why can't Calgary? Big difference is Ward is 19 games into his contract and Julien was 277 games into his. His contract was up this season and they were likely making a change in the off season regardless.
If that's the kind of leash our management team is going to give, it's a bad look to the rest of the league and to potential free agents- coaches and players.
If that's the kind of leash our management team is going to give, it's a bad look to the rest of the league and to potential free agents- coaches and players.
Sure didn't seem to hurt Vegas when they canned Gallant for DeBoer. People saw that as a shrewd move to win the cup and they have landed several free agents since.
Yeah fair enough. I can't just wrap my head around the people screaming "Why is Ward still here??"
He's coached 19 games since being named the head coach. Would be incredibly bush league to fire him now. Why would anyone else ever want to come here?
Active NHL Head Coaching Records
W-L-T-OTL (P%) (Cups)
1. Sheldon Keefe, TOR - 41-19-0-7 (66.4%) (0)
2. Jon Cooper, TBL - 358-184-0-51 (64.7%) (1)
3. Bruce Cassidy, BOS - 219-116-9-43 (63.3%) (0)
4. Dean Evason, MIN - 17-10-0-0 (63.0%) (0)
5. Rod Brind’Amour, CAR - 96-58-0-13 (61.4%) (0)
6. Joel Quenneville, FLA - 937-561-77-147 (60.9) (3)
7. Mike Sullivan, PIT - 293-177-15-64 (60.6%) (2)
8. Craig Berube, STL - 165-103-0-46 (59.9%) (1)
9. Alain Vigneault, PHI - 697-460-35-108 (59.1%) (0)
10. Peter Laviolette, WSH - 646-430-25-126 (58.8%) (1)
11. Claude Julien, MTL - 667-445-10-151 (58.7%) (1)
12. Todd McLellan, LAK - 471-323-0-99 (58.3%) (0) 13. Geoff Ward, CGY - 34-24-0-4 (58.1%) (0)
14. Barry Trotz, NYI - 854-624-60-154 (56.8%) (1)
15. Dave Tippett, EDM - 602-446-28-129 (56.5%) (0)
16. Lindy Ruff, NJD - 742-559-78-127 (56.1%) (0)
17. Peter Deboer, VGK - 441-338-0-114 (55.8%) (0)
18. John Tortorella, CBJ - 663-522-37-124 (55.2%) (1)
——————The Paul Maurice Line ——————
———You want to be above it. ———
19. Paul Maurice, WPG - 743-653-99-123 (52.8%) (0)
20. Bob Boughner, SJS - 101-90-0-27 (52.5%) (0)
21. Jeremy Colliton, CHI - 71-64-0-21 (52.2%) (0)
22. Jared Bednar, COL - 154-141-0-36 (52.0%) (0)
23. David Quinn, NYR - 75-71-0-22 (51.2%) (0)
24. John Hynes, NSH - 173-180-0-46 (49.1%) (0)
25. Travis Green, VAN - 110-115-0-30 (49.0%) (0)
26. Rick Tocchet, ARI - 162-181-0-57 (47.6%) (0)
27. Ralph Krueger, BUF - 54-61-0-17 (47.3%) (0)
28. Jeff Blashill, DET - 158-206-0-55 (44.3%) (0)
29. Dallas Eakins, ANA - 71-106-0-26 (41.4%) (0)
30. DJ Smith, OTT - 30-48-0-13 (40.1%) (0)
31. Rick Bowness, DAL - 147-306-48-12 (34.5%) (0)
Not doing to shabby as Interm and now HC of the Flames. His decision making at times through is a bit questionable but that could also be on the players as they don't seem to be very consistent each game.
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... I don’t feel like this coaching staff can deliver. I want the team to play a system more suitable to the players we have. I believe that would be a team with a much faster transition from defense to offense, out of the zone with a better break out and ability to get through the NZ. A style that plays more in the middle of the offensive zone and less around the perimeter and boards, that has the goalie moving cross crease a lot more and with more traffic in the middle. I want a coach that has the team ready to play, makes good adjustments, and knows how to get top performances out of the best players....
Overall, this is one of the better teams we have had from goalie out. We are, unfortunately a piece or 2 short of being extremely good. Partly the result of Covid and no cap increase Id say. Another $4MM would have gone a long way. Still, the current style of play and inability to have the team ready and make in game and game to game adjustments sells our current player group way short in my opinion.
For me, I believe we have already taken too long to deal with this. So, the best time to make a change is now. Who will coach for 2-3 weeks is not an issue to me. Who will coach and get top performance for 3 years? That is a question for thought and analysis.
In have also been a fan of the team since the move to Calgary. Cheers!
I don't disagree with you about some of the finer details of the system, but I will say this:
First, I think you are probably over-rating the group. For all their skill this Flames team might be the most psychologically fragile core of players I have ever seen. They are floundering under their FOURTH(!) head coach in SIX(!) years. I would say that most of their on-ice problems are of their own making from their aneurism-inducing inability to start games on time, to their stupefying failure to complete more than a pass or two at a time for long stretches. I certainly do not think Geoff Ward is a great coach, but I am also pretty soundly convinced that this group of players will have middling to short-lived success under any coach.
Second, as noted above, circumstances dictate that no coaching changes will be made in-season barring something absurdly catastrophic like Geoff Ward losing his mind and mowing down Sam Bennett with a Zamboni. Simply put: the Flames are already paying one man a lot of money to not coach their team. They won't be paying for two.
__________________
Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
Sure didn't seem to hurt Vegas when they canned Gallant for DeBoer. People saw that as a shrewd move to win the cup and they have landed several free agents since.
Gallant was in the third year of his contract. Geoff Ward is in his fifth month. There is a HUGE difference.
__________________
Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
Sure didn't seem to hurt Vegas when they canned Gallant for DeBoer. People saw that as a shrewd move to win the cup and they have landed several free agents since.
Already mentioned, but Gallant was the head coach of that team for 213 games. Ward has been the head coach for 19. Massive difference and not at all comparable.
Active NHL Head Coaching Records
W-L-T-OTL (P%) (Cups)
1. Sheldon Keefe, TOR - 41-19-0-7 (66.4%) (0)
2. Jon Cooper, TBL - 358-184-0-51 (64.7%) (1)
3. Bruce Cassidy, BOS - 219-116-9-43 (63.3%) (0)
4. Dean Evason, MIN - 17-10-0-0 (63.0%) (0)
5. Rod Brind’Amour, CAR - 96-58-0-13 (61.4%) (0)
6. Joel Quenneville, FLA - 937-561-77-147 (60.9) (3)
7. Mike Sullivan, PIT - 293-177-15-64 (60.6%) (2)
8. Craig Berube, STL - 165-103-0-46 (59.9%) (1)
9. Alain Vigneault, PHI - 697-460-35-108 (59.1%) (0)
10. Peter Laviolette, WSH - 646-430-25-126 (58.8%) (1)
11. Claude Julien, MTL - 667-445-10-151 (58.7%) (1)
12. Todd McLellan, LAK - 471-323-0-99 (58.3%) (0) 13. Geoff Ward, CGY - 34-24-0-4 (58.1%) (0)
14. Barry Trotz, NYI - 854-624-60-154 (56.8%) (1)
15. Dave Tippett, EDM - 602-446-28-129 (56.5%) (0)
16. Lindy Ruff, NJD - 742-559-78-127 (56.1%) (0)
17. Peter Deboer, VGK - 441-338-0-114 (55.8%) (0)
18. John Tortorella, CBJ - 663-522-37-124 (55.2%) (1)
——————The Paul Maurice Line ——————
———You want to be above it. ———
19. Paul Maurice, WPG - 743-653-99-123 (52.8%) (0)
20. Bob Boughner, SJS - 101-90-0-27 (52.5%) (0)
21. Jeremy Colliton, CHI - 71-64-0-21 (52.2%) (0)
22. Jared Bednar, COL - 154-141-0-36 (52.0%) (0)
23. David Quinn, NYR - 75-71-0-22 (51.2%) (0)
24. John Hynes, NSH - 173-180-0-46 (49.1%) (0)
25. Travis Green, VAN - 110-115-0-30 (49.0%) (0)
26. Rick Tocchet, ARI - 162-181-0-57 (47.6%) (0)
27. Ralph Krueger, BUF - 54-61-0-17 (47.3%) (0)
28. Jeff Blashill, DET - 158-206-0-55 (44.3%) (0)
29. Dallas Eakins, ANA - 71-106-0-26 (41.4%) (0)
30. DJ Smith, OTT - 30-48-0-13 (40.1%) (0)
31. Rick Bowness, DAL - 147-306-48-12 (34.5%) (0)
Not doing to shabby as Interm and now HC of the Flames. His decision making at times through is a bit questionable but that could also be on the players as they don't seem to be very consistent each game.
Rick Bowness has the worst record by far, but he got his team to the finals. What does this mean?
Gallant was in the third year of his contract. Geoff Ward is in his fifth month. There is a HUGE difference.
True. Gallant didn't put career tweeners on the ice in critical situations, didn't replace 1st line RWs with players who have gone an entire season without scoring, and was able to make in-game and in-season adjustments not called "line blender". Ward might have a shorter resume, but it's also a LOT more questionable in terms of player utilization and strategy. It's clear that he has alienated some players. Also, don't forget that Ward's post prior to the Flames was coaching Ottawa to league-worst special teams. The Flames on paper look considerably better than last season's bunch, but on ice the opposite appears to be true.
IMO, the level of incompetence Ward has demonstrated more than outweighs the relatively short tenure he has had.
Shooting Percentage: 8.66% (12th)
Save Percentage: .933 (2nd)
Problem has been special teams.
PP has been poor, and PK has been poor. But give me the team that has the team playing elite at 5v5 any day of the week.
If I'm Treliving I'd be checking in with Julien to see if he'd be willing to come here as head coach, and Ward can either leave or head back to being an associate coach if he wants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bax
Yeah fair enough. I can't just wrap my head around the people screaming "Why is Ward still here??"
He's coached 19 games since being named the head coach. Would be incredibly bush league to fire him now. Why would anyone else ever want to come here?
I think it's more that there is a big contingent of people (myself included) who don't think he should have ever been head coach to start with after that performance in the playoffs, and his poor coaching has continued into this season.
Last edited by SuperMatt18; 02-24-2021 at 11:38 AM.
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Changing gears a bit: who does Montreal hire next year? Gallant isn’t a francophone despite his name (falling under the Rene Bourque category). Neither is Boudreau (similar). Could this be the return of Patrick Roy?
Already mentioned, but Gallant was the head coach of that team for 213 games. Ward has been the head coach for 19. Massive difference and not at all comparable.
For me I'm framing it more as Gallant had a winning record and made the finals with the same team. They still fired him because they want to win and people respect that.
Now you have people saying to give Ward a chance because he is only 19 games in as head coach. That would be fair if this team was rebuilding, but myself and many others are frustrated as we would like to see the win now attitude implemented for this team.
Firing Ward would show other coaches and free agents that this team values winning. The type of free agents and coaches you want on the team would respect that in my opinion, the same way they do in Vegas.
Sorry I guess I didn't elaborate enough in my initial post.
In have also been a fan of the team since the move to Calgary. Cheers!
I don't disagree with you about some of the finer details of the system, but I will say this:
First, I think you are probably over-rating the group. For all their skill this Flames team might be the most psychologically fragile core of players stretches.
Second, as noted above, circumstances dictate that no coaching changes will be made in-season barring.
Yes, I refer to talent not psychology there. It is a good part of the reason I didn’t like the Ward choice. This team needs a veteran coach who is a master motivator and has a system that fuels them. The coaches they have had for the most part have had very similar systems (Hartley aside). To me, this is because it’s the system Treliving feels will work. While I’m more of a Treliving supporter than many here, this is a point I would disagree with. Your point is very valid. The core has shown a tendency to be psychologically fragile and a tendency to not get to the right level emotionally in time. My belief is that the answer from a coaching standpoint is 3 fold. A strong veteran motivator, pushes them very hard, with a system that feels rewarding and enhances confidence. I believe both Gulutzan and Ward lacked all 3. Peter’s had a better system in year 1 than 2 and pushed hard but didn’t have the best ways to motivate.
I don’t own the team, I’m a fan. You are probably right but I will remain frustrated. I don’t care if we are already paying Peter’s (although it was my belief there was a negotiated settlement). If I was a billionaire owner of a sports team, I would have already made a call with strong suggestion that it does not appear that the current situation is working. It isn’t like Ward is paid $5MM per. I do think we repeated the same mistake. I am also a believer that when you realize you’ve made a mistake and have the wrong person hired, you fix it without delay.
So, really comes back to my original post which was a short frustrated quip. I hope that the Montreal firing is a wake up call like a ten alarm fire. I’m happy to see any warm body behind the bench short term if it means the organization is finding a better long term solution. Likely? No. So, not worth putting much thought into. 😛
But Murray, Brad, and all the rest of the CSE group reads this and does what we post right? 😂
