The fall of Monahan, and the fall of the Flames

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

CP reacts to a 12 game scoring slump = reactionary
1 solid bounce back game = Clowning the reaction

That's some solid math you got there.

Huh? Math?

What are you talking about?

Follow the thread of replies. There's 1+1 of them before you get to the "clowning" post being responded to (since you like math ). Not my words, just having a laugh about the whole thing.

[sketchyt]

Hopes for Monahan was to become a solid second line centre with a ceiling for the first line. At the time, this franchise had nothing at that position.

He's become a bottom end first line C. Probably somewhere in the top 20-30 range.

The Debbie Downers for some reason have some weird expectation that he should be a flashy top 10 C. He's not, he never will be, and that's ok for him.

With the current C depth (exhibit: Oilers home-home series), this team needs more Sean Monahans and not less of them. The nitpicking of Sean Monahan is so incredibly silly.

[Flamenspiel]

Horvat is interesting, the difference being that he is second line centre and does not have to play against the other teams best player, Patterson gets that. Even before he got to play behind the Sedins. He has always been a sheltered player.

Monahan would be a 50 goal scorer with the Canucks.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

Horvat is interesting, the difference being that he is second line centre and does not have to play against the other teams best player, Patterson gets that. Even before he got to play behind the Sedins. He has always been a sheltered player.

Monahan would be a 50 goal scorer with the Canucks.

Ideally the Flames can create a similar situation for Monahan somehow.
He would be a great 2nd line centre.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Huh? Math?

What are you talking about?

Follow the thread of replies. There's 1+1 of them before you get to the "clowning" post being responded to (since you like math ). Not my words, just having a laugh about the whole thing.

Sorry, my post was unnecessarily snarky to you.

I just find there's a sentiment that we can't discuss his 12 game goalless streak or general trend of play in the past 1.5 years because he had 1 good game yesterday and has apparently clowned the thread now.

I think the good, bad and realistic expectations of what Monahan is and can be for this team are paramount in the Flames ever getting the next level and a very important discussion in the makeup of this team.

[chedder]

The 960 guys said this afternoon that it is known that the Flames tried to trade Monahan this past summer?

Anyone know the details? First I've heard of this one.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by chedder

The 960 guys said this afternoon that it is known that the Flames tried to trade Monahan this past summer?

Anyone know the details? First I've heard of this one.

There was some rumblings around Columbus. Maybe Bennett + Monahan for PLD + Anderson?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Bonded

There was some rumblings around Columbus. Maybe Bennett + Monahan for PLD + Anderson?

I am guessing it was Monahan+Gaudreau for PLD+Anderson (I think they offered the deal you mentioned for Dubois before the Jets got him)

I have heard the 960 say they know that Treliving tried hard to make huge core changes this offseason but obviously nothing can to fruition.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

NM, I get what you were saying now.

I don't see anything wrong with these comments though, I'd take Horvat over Monahan every day of the week.

So would I. Horvat can change the momentum on the ice with individual efforts. I have a hard time recalling any time where Monahan has done.

[2macinnis2]

Originally Posted by sketchyt

Hopes for Monahan was to become a solid second line centre with a ceiling for the first line. At the time, this franchise had nothing at that position.

He's become a bottom end first line C. Probably somewhere in the top 20-30 range.

The Debbie Downers for some reason have some weird expectation that he should be a flashy top 10 C. He's not, he never will be, and that's ok for him.

With the current C depth (exhibit: Oilers home-home series), this team needs more Sean Monahans and not less of them. The nitpicking of Sean Monahan is so incredibly silly.

I definitely respect this opinion as I’ve said, many here argued before the 2018 season about Monahan early production vs Iginla (I think Monahan actually held the upper hand on stats) and there were definitely those who have consistently felt as you describe.

Maybe I’m just on the other side of the fence. I DID see a top 10 center in the making. And there was a consistent upwards trajectory. Until there kind of suddenly wasn’t.

FYI this last couple of weird games off that Ward said Monahan would have played through if it were playoffs, but the staff wanted to give him a couple games off for maintenance? I mean he isn’t 38 years old, and it didn’t look like he was favoring either leg last night. To me, that is worrisome that he nurses a chronic condition that needs rest every so often (and probably keeps him from ever playing like his hair is on fire).

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

So would I. Horvat can change the momentum on the ice with individual efforts. I have a hard time recalling any time where Monahan has done.

I think Monahan was the main reason for the good start yesterday in Toronto. Watch the first 2 minutes of the game recap on NHL.com

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

Horvat is interesting, the difference being that he is second line centre and does not have to play against the other teams best player, Patterson gets that. Even before he got to play behind the Sedins. He has always been a sheltered player.

Monahan would be a 50 goal scorer with the Canucks.

Monahan is this team’s current second line center and gets a lot of easier sheltered minutes and matchups and he’s on pace for a 14 goal season in an 82 game season.m

At this point, I think it’s very fair to be critical of any player on this core right now considering how long they’ve had to turn things around and change their narrative. But we just haven’t seen any progression. Dallas played their 3rd line a lot against the Flames a lot last summer and they completely shut down the Flames first line. I believe Monahan ended up with 0 goals, 2 assists in 6 games that series. His line has consistently shown that they can not get it done when the games get tough in the playoffs. They certainly have no problem scoring in the run and gun regular season, but until they can get it done in the playoffs, the same critiques will emerge.

That’s why I believe Bo Horvat has surpassed Sean Monahan. He took a big step forward in the playoffs, raised the level of his game and helped his team win 2 playoff rounds. It Sean Monahan can match that level of leadership and performance, then the criticism will start to fade.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by chedder

The 960 guys said this afternoon that it is known that the Flames tried to trade Monahan this past summer?

Anyone know the details? First I've heard of this one.

Believe it might have been a larger deal involving Josh Anderson + Korpisalo or Merzlikins for Monahan. Not sure if Bennett was involved and I highly doubt PLD was ever involved as Columbus had a deal in their pocket for Laine + Roslovic way back.

Probably worked out as the Flames ended up with Markstrom and didn’t have to give up any assets for him.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Monahan is this team’s current second line center and gets a lot of easier sheltered minutes and matchups and he’s on pace for a 14 goal season in an 82 game season...

Right, but how confident are you that Monahan is actually going to finish the season by scoring only six more goals?

That’s why I believe Bo Horvat has surpassed Sean Monahan. He took a big step forward in the playoffs, raised the level of his game and helped his team win 2 playoff rounds. It Sean Monahan can match that level of leadership and performance, then the criticism will start to fade.

Monahan is still out-pacing Horvat, despite the fact that he is also suffering through the lowest shot-conversion rate of his entire career. Until he manages to consistently out-produce him, then I think observations that Horvat has not passed Monahan will persist.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by New Era

I've been waiting for a thread like this to come along. I knew that as soon as Monahan dedicated himself to playing the game that people were whining about - better defensively, more physical, more dedicated to being a two way center - that his offensive production would change and with it perceptions of him. It's funny because people were warned that if Monahan changed his game that people would not be happy with probable outcomes. Well here we are with the "new and improved" Sean Monahan and people are upset with the outcome.

Monahan's game is way better this year. He is doing everything people demanded of him. He's way better defensively, he's playing with more of an edge, and he is dedicated to being a two way center. He has achieved that and everyone should be happy as result. But no. Now people are whining because his game has changed? Of course he was going to see his offensive production drop. When you're being Mr. Responsibility and focusing on your own end first your offense is going to dry up a bit. When you are expected to maintain your defensive responsibilities you are not going to go hunting for the soft spots are then going to turn into more of a passer than a shooter. When you are more focused on being more physical you are going to open yourself up to more little injuries here and there especially when you're deeper in your zone and getting in the way more. This is the outcome expected from a player making the change demanded by the fans and the coaches.

You want the offensive Sean Monahan back, then get him a winger who can be the defensive conscience on the line a la Lindholm. Otherwise stop your whining and accept the new Sean Monahan. He's doing what so many have demanded of him with expected results.

Monahan was garbage last year while putting up a reasonable goal total, and he's been garbage this year whilst barely scoring in a highly sheltered role (63% oZS!!!). Seriously - how do you not have great numbers with that type of usage?

I have seen zero evidence of any improved defensive play, physicality or ability to offer more than garbage goals to the team. His FO% has plummeted and he's currently on pace for his lowest hit total and take away totals since his rookie year (pro-rated). If this is what fans wanted I think the Flames fanbase should be shot into orbit asap.

Guy is the poster child for why this Flames team is an inconsistent country club, full of guys collecting paychecks.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Monahan was garbage last year while putting up a reasonable goal total, and he's been garbage this year whilst barely scoring in a highly sheltered role (63% oZS!!!). Seriously - how do you not have great numbers with that type of usage?

I have seen zero evidence of any improved defensive play, physicality or ability to offer more than garbage goals to the team. His FO% has plummeted and he's currently on pace for his lowest hit total and take away totals since his rookie year (pro-rated). If this is what fans wanted I think the Flames fanbase should be shot into orbit asap.

Guy is the poster child for why this Flames team is an inconsistent country club, full of guys collecting paychecks.

Well, here is a funny thing. The Sedins got a ton of o zone starts and they were some of the best at cycling that we have seen.

When Johnny, Monny and Lindholm were lighting up the league, they were scoring a lot off the rush.

Rushes don’t start in the o zone

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Believe it might have been a larger deal involving Josh Anderson + Korpisalo or Merzlikins for Monahan. Not sure if Bennett was involved and I highly doubt PLD was ever involved as Columbus had a deal in their pocket for Laine + Roslovic way back.

Probably worked out as the Flames ended up with Markstrom and didn’t have to give up any assets for him.

Not sure the existence of a deal involving a player that wasn't consummated at the time (reason unclear?) is evidence that a different deal involving the same player may not have also been close.

We don't know who said yes/no in either instance. It's plausible that CBJ balked on the Laine deal to try to get a C back instead...we will never know the order of events

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Well, here is a funny thing. The Sedins got a ton of o zone starts and they were some of the best at cycling that we have seen.

When Johnny, Monny and Lindholm were lighting up the league, they were scoring a lot off the rush.

Rushes don’t start in the o zone

Right. So getting cushy oZS, which any player in the league would drool over, is somehow working against the great Sean Monahan?

Much like the Bennett crowd, the Monahan crowd needs to realize that the Flames are continually stuck in neutral because of players like these two guys not living up to their part of the bargain often enough.

[t0rrent98]

I didn't realize Monahan is currently the Flames active franchise leading goal scorer with 196 goals.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by t0rrent98

I didn't realize Monahan is currently the Flames active franchise leading goal scorer with 196 goals.

Shhhh. He sucks remember!?