Brad Treliving needs to go

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The prospect cupboard under Treliving had, but no longer includes Bennett, Valimaki, Dube, Andersson, Mangiapane or, I suppose Kylington. Gawdin and Mackey just played their first games.

When Treliving took over he had prospects such as Jankowski, Sven, Gillies, Wotherspoon, Poirier, and Klimchuk in the system.

Those were once considered good to great prospects. You also "forgot" to include the likes of Kulak, Culkin, Granlund, Ferland, Gaudreau, Arnold, and Broissoit. I also like how you don't include the young players on the team when Treliving took over, but whatever. The bottom line is the minor league system is a mess and is the midst of a crash. We are about to feel the pinch of the 2017 and 2018 drafts where we were short on top picks and haven't been able to filter players into the system. Those are two straight years where we were limited on picks is going to hurt, especially when the majority of those players selected were small. That 2018 draft saw us draft five players, and only one of them was over six feet. This is the reality we face and no spin is going to change that. Its one of the reasons Treliving has been aggressive in the college free agent market. We need the bodies even if they are very long shots to make it to the NHL.

[Jacks]

Treliving took over a recently blown up club that should have been in the middle of a rebuild, it had a core that included:
Giordano - 30yrs
Backlund - 25yrs
Monahan - 19yrs
Brodie - 24yrs

And a bunch of good veterans like Hudler, Cammalleri, Stajan, Russell, Glencross, Byron, Wideman, etc.

The only less than desirable contracts were:
Stajan 3.125M x 4yrs
Jones 4M x 2yrs
I guess some people might include Wideman but he was playing well at the time.
Some might also include Smid but he got injured which didn't hurt the team capwise.
There was also O'Brien as a buried contract for 1 more year at 2M.

Considering the team was rebuilding, none of these contracts were a problem.

In the pipeline he had:
Gaudreau
Baertschi
Ferland
Kulak
Jankowski
Brossoit
And a bunch of other prospects that didn't pan out, some highly rated.

With 27M in cap space (71M cap), no boat anchor contracts, a fan base that accepted the rebuild and low expectations he walked into a pretty sweet position to build from. He also had all of his draft picks including the upcoming 4th overall.

Let's not pretend he had to clean up a mess, the mess is entirely of his creation.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I like Treliving and haven't really waded into this thread that much. One point I do bring up repeatedly elsewhere is 2014 draft was not really Treliving's. He was hired a month before the draft so all they year long work had already been done (Burke identified the player qualities he wanted and Button had the scouts looking for those players). However Treliving was on stage calling out names.

Treliving's real first draft is 2015.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Treliving took over a recently blown up club that should have been in the middle of a rebuild, it had a core that included:
Giordano - 30yrs
Backlund - 25yrs
Monahan - 19yrs
Brodie - 24yrs

And a bunch of good veterans like Hudler, Cammalleri, Stajan, Russell, Glencross, Byron, Wideman, etc.

The only less than desirable contracts were:
Stajan 3.125M x 4yrs
Jones 4M x 2yrs
I guess some people might include Wideman but he was playing well at the time.
Some might also include Smid but he got injured which didn't hurt the team capwise.
There was also O'Brien as a buried contract for 1 more year at 2M.

Considering the team was rebuilding, none of these contracts were a problem.

In the pipeline he had:
Gaudreau
Baertschi
Ferland
Kulak
Jankowski
Brossoit
And a bunch of other prospects that didn't pan out, some highly rated.

With 27M in cap space (71M cap), no boat anchor contracts, a fan base that accepted the rebuild and low expectations he walked into a pretty sweet position to build from. He also had all of his draft picks including the upcoming 4th overall.

Let's not pretend he had to clean up a mess, the mess is entirely of his creation.

This is a good post. Feaster is the one who inherited an awful team: no prospects, lots of older players with bad contracts. Drafting arguably turned around in 2011 - all 5 picks were good prospects and played in the NHL. Unlike Sutter, Feaster deferred to the expertise of Button.

Treliving had more of a fresh start. All but four players in the system were acquired by Treliving (Gio and Backlund by Sutter, Johnny and Monny from Feaster). I guess technically Rafikov was drafted by Feaster. Other than that, it's completely Treliving's team now.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by New Era

Those were once considered good to great prospects. You also "forgot" to include the likes of Kulak, Culkin, Granlund, Ferland, Gaudreau, Arnold, and Broissoit. I also like how you don't include the young players on the team when Treliving took over, but whatever. The bottom line is the minor league system is a mess and is the midst of a crash. We are about to feel the pinch of the 2017 and 2018 drafts where we were short on top picks and haven't been able to filter players into the system. Those are two straight years where we were limited on picks is going to hurt, especially when the majority of those players selected were small. That 2018 draft saw us draft five players, and only one of them was over six feet. This is the reality we face and no spin is going to change that. Its one of the reasons Treliving has been aggressive in the college free agent market. We need the bodies even if they are very long shots to make it to the NHL.

Yeah they should have drafted a big guy like Kanzig.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

As Josh Donaldson once said: "This isn't the try league. This is the get it done league."

The GM effectively brings in everyone who is responsible for this mediocre and poorly constructed team

Players, Coach, Scouts, Trainers, etc.

He is ultimately accountable.

The excuses constantly made for him blow my mind. Either you think he has done well or not. Who cares what he has 'tried' to do.

You need some nuance to the whole thing though. it's not black or white.

He has done many things very well. He has done many things not so well.

So in judging his overall body of work, you have to include the good with the bad.

I think he has been way above average in drafting and in RFA contract negotiations.

He has been well below average in his UFA deals.

He has been middling at best when it comes to his coaching hires and the results produced. I would also put his trading abilities here though i think its been better than not over all.

Im of the opinion that it may be time for a fresh voice/idea guy at the top as there is no way the organization didnt think they would be further along than they are now in regards to playoff success.

That being said, he will get the rest of this year and next to save his bacon after signing that last deal through 22-23.

[Textcritic]

I get the frustration that fans have with Treliving, but I have long maintained that it is shortsighted. Without getting into it, I think that five years is an impossibly short window in which to build a team—it only works if everything goes exactly right. I think Treliving's situation is then complicated by the fact that this he was a first-time GM when he was hired in Calgary. Like in any job, it takes time to learn, and I think at the time that most people were happy to see Treliving forge his craft with a rebuilding team. Unfortunately, the unexpectedly good on-ice results in his first year on the job altered the mandate from his employers, and it probably convinced him to push forward prematurely.

He has certainly made mistakes—the most glaring of which has been his coaching selections. But at this point I find myself much more comfortable with Treliving continuing at the helm than I am with his likely replacement. Something I have always appreciated about Treliving is a willingness to own his own mistakes, and to work hard to correct them. I think that he understands what is wrong with the group, but for a variety of reasons—several of which are beyond his control—has been unable to see that through. I would prefer to see him continue to work towards playing out this group, and I am intrigued at the prospect of how he would handle a proper rebuild, in view of the mistakes that he made the first time around.

For those who are eager to see Treliving dismissed, I would ask what you expect to happen as a result? Because I am quite certain that his replacement would not be an improvement. Most likely, he would be another rookie GM learning on the job, and making mistakes along the way. The Flames have invested in Treliving as much as they have in anyone; I think there is some value in seeing how the return on that investment plays out in the long run.

[Da_Chief]

^What an excuse to accept mediocrity. Because mediocre GM has been around for a long time he should stay around.

Why does it have to be another rookie GM hire? Also not all rookie GMs have been awful. Yzerman, Sakic, Sweeney, Kekalainen, Nill, Macllenan etc have all done well.

Jim Rutherford and Dean Lomdardi are couple names that come to mind as experienced GMs.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Treliving took over a recently blown up club that should have been in the middle of a rebuild, it had a core that included:
Giordano - 30yrs
Backlund - 25yrs
Monahan - 19yrs
Brodie - 24yrs

And a bunch of good veterans like Hudler, Cammalleri, Stajan, Russell, Glencross, Byron, Wideman, etc.

The only less than desirable contracts were:
Stajan 3.125M x 4yrs
Jones 4M x 2yrs
I guess some people might include Wideman but he was playing well at the time.
Some might also include Smid but he got injured which didn't hurt the team capwise.
There was also O'Brien as a buried contract for 1 more year at 2M.

Considering the team was rebuilding, none of these contracts were a problem.

In the pipeline he had:
Gaudreau
Baertschi
Ferland
Kulak
Jankowski
Brossoit
And a bunch of other prospects that didn't pan out, some highly rated.

With 27M in cap space (71M cap), no boat anchor contracts, a fan base that accepted the rebuild and low expectations he walked into a pretty sweet position to build from. He also had all of his draft picks including the upcoming 4th overall.

Let's not pretend he had to clean up a mess, the mess is entirely of his creation.

I don’t disagree entirely with this post but there are things stated that I do.

1. I don’t really agree the team is a mess like you state in your last sentence
2. Cammalleri was a UFA and not a veteran that was inherited
3. Wideman, Stajan, Glencross were veterans but I disagree they were good
4. Monahan, Gaudreau and the 4th pick were assets that were going to make an impact right away but many of those other prospects were busts
5. Agree that Gio, Brodie and Backlund were nice core pieces that came from Sutter to help build around

I guess one of the things Feaster did well enough was clean the cap sheet as you mentioned but he ailed miserably to get anything of value for our previous star players. Nothing worthwhile for Regehr, Kipper, Iginla, Bouwmeester, Cammalleri, Tanguay.

He took over a team with a clean slate and some intriguing pieces that had missed the playoffs 5 years in a row. He guided that team to the playoffs in 4 of 6 years. Even with this bad start to the year I have believed this team will make the playoffs for the third straight year and 5 out of 7 seasons.

This is a team with 6 of their top 7 forwards aged 22-27, 3 of their top 5 D are 24 or younger, they have a solid goaltending tandem and do not have a player on the roster that makes more than $7M in a season. Lucic is a brutal contract but that is it for this team.

I have not got nearly as low on this team as many on this forum have this year so I just don’t agree a mess has been created. To me this team has a single boat anchor contract. I disagree with New Era’s notion the farm system is a mess. Pelletier and Zary likely are on this team sooner than later and we still have some other intriguing guys in Philips, Wolf, Pettersson. I think the Hamonic and Lazar trades were among his biggest missteps though as those 2 deals resulted in a lack of a 2nd rounder for 3 years and a 1st rounder in what would turn out to be a 12th overall pick.

[AustinL_NHL]

One thing people are totally not giving Trelviing enough credit for is the Flames' drafting approach under him.

Many draft models have the Flames right at/near the top in terms of the value they've been able to get based on where they've drafted since Treliving took over.

I hate what he's done in terms of consistently trading away mid-round picks for garbage depth, but on the draft floor, he's done excellent

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yeah they should have drafted a big guy like Kanzig.

Because that was exactly what I said, they should be wasting picks on big useless knuckle draggers.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

^What an excuse to accept mediocrity. Because mediocre GM has been around for a long time he should stay around.

Why does it have to be another rookie GM hire? Also not all rookie GMs have been awful. Yzerman, Sakic, Sweeney, Kekalainen, Nill, Macllenan etc have all done well.

Jim Rutherford and Dean Lomdardi are couple names that come to mind as experienced GMs.

Jim Rutherford is pushing 70 years old.

It would likely be Pascal, Conroy or maybe someone like Gillis who seems desperate to get back into the league.

What has Kekalainen done to be considered that much better than Treliving? Jim Nill was on the firing block prior to the Stars surprise run last year. Sweeny took over a team that was one season removed from a SCF appearance.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

^What an excuse to accept mediocrity. Because mediocre GM has been around for a long time he should stay around.

That is not what I said at all.

Why does it have to be another rookie GM hire? Also not all rookie GMs have been awful. Yzerman, Sakic, Sweeney, Kekalainen, Nill, Macllenan etc have all done well.

Jim Rutherford and Dean Lomdardi are couple names that come to mind as experienced GMs.

Jim Rutherford and Dean Lombardi are not coming to Calgary. And I would absolutely not describe Treliving's tenure as "awful." He has most certainly not performed any more poorly than Kekalainen, and several of these other guys (Yzerman, Sakic, Sweeney and MacLellan) have inherited franchise and generational players.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

For those who are eager to see Treliving dismissed, I would ask what you expect to happen as a result? Because I am quite certain that his replacement would not be an improvement. Most likely, he would be another rookie GM learning on the job, and making mistakes along the way. The Flames have invested in Treliving as much as they have in anyone; I think there is some value in seeing how the return on that investment plays out in the long run.

I don't think he should be fired, at least not right now, just pointing out that he walked into a pretty good situation. Most new GM's inherit a lot worse.



BTW, It's been just shy of 7 years not 5.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

That is not what I said at all.


Jim Rutherford and Dean Lombardi are not coming to Calgary. And I would absolutely not describe Treliving's tenure as "awful." He has most certainly not performed any more poorly than Kekalainen, and several of these other guys (Yzerman, Sakic, Sweeney and MacLellan) have inherited franchise and generational players.

And why's that

[Number 39]

I assume if Treliving is dismissed he would be replaced by Don Maloney or Conroy. Both are already in house.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jacks

I don't think he should be fired, at least not right now, just pointing out that he walked into a pretty good situation. Most new GM's inherit a lot worse.



BTW, It's been just shy of 7 years not 5.

Name 3 GM’s that walked into a worse situation specifically when taking over a team in a rebuild?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

And why's that

Jim Rutherford is 70-years-old, and just walked away from the Pittsburgh Penguins. I think it is highly unlikely that he ever goes back to work again.

Dean Lombardi hasn't worked for three years, despite there being twelve management changes in the NHL since he was dismissed by LA. Either he has no interest in going back to work, or he is being very selective about his next position, and I very seriously doubt that ends up being in Calgary.

[GioforPM]

When Feaster was fired the only thing Burke could bring himself to say he did well was to clear the decks of contracts. He didn’t have a high opinion of his prospects or any trades.

[Bingo]

I like Trelving, I wouldn't fire him.

But I get that some want him gone.

If I like the way a GM approaches things I'd rather keep him. I realize I won't like every move he makes, but more often than not I see what he's trying to do, and agree with the model on paper.

But on the ice it hasn't worked.

If you would have told me 3 years ago that Sean Monahan and Johnny Gaudreau shouldn't be 2/3 of a top line I wouldn't have believed you. It just hasn't worked.

I personally don't blame the GM for that fact, and with that being the biggest issue in what he built not working I don't see that as a flawed GM and a necessary firing.

The coaching choices have been mired for sure, but then I think that also rolls into the core and the core not being what it should have been. Doesn't mean they were the right choices necessarily, but the impact on the coaching is certainly a factor.

But GMs and coaches are all hired to be fired, and that day will come.

Wouldn't be now for me, but I certainly don't see it as insanity to think differently.