2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Psytic

Our D and Markstrom on Paper plus Johnny and Money should be enough to offset Mc D and Drai. Chucky, Backs and Lindholm should be able to carry the bag against Yamamoto and RNH. Its really not far off imo. Im not a Tippet fan but they just look better prepared this season than the Flames do to play which is scary since this is the Oil we are talking about.

The Flames really do need to figure out what they want to be though. Do they want to be an up-tempo speedy team like Montreal? Than they need the right Coach and a few more speedsters to pull it off. Do they want to go full 2012 Coyotes ? Then they need to get some more Lindholm / Forsberg / responsible 2 way types. They are stuck in the middle right now and good at neither style of play , with a coach that isn't good either way. The team is like a mixed bag of big and small, slugs and speedsters. Its all over the map with no identity as posters have noted before.

I’m not saying Edmonton is better on paper or otherwise. I’m saying they are better than last year because they are now a two line team rather than open, and each of those two lines have a better centre. Both Calgary and Edmonton have two 2/3 top lines (both are missing another winger) but Calgary arguably has better wingers and Edmonton has better centres.

Calgary’s problem has, to me, always been partly that the top line couldn’t be depended to play against the opposing top line - they couldn’t go strength v strength, which cuts down on minutes for Monahan/Gaudreau (and therefore scoring opportunities). Now, if they’re overwhelming offensively, you worry about it less, but they are also not that hard to defend if you know their tendencies.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Psytic

Its easier to build around a generational player than not for sure. But that's not really in the cards for the Flames regardless either way so its a moot point for the Flames. With what they have there's no reason they cant be a solid team like VGK or St Louis or heck even just where Winnipeg or Montreal is right now in the standings.

We don't need a McDavid to be a top team. Other teams do it just fine. The Flames have the trade capital to make this be a solidly built 2nd round team imo with the right give a #### mix and Coach. They do need a new coach and some change of scenery deals however. Teams like Nashville and Buffalo might work for partners.

Even if it isn't in the cards for the Flames to have a MacKinnon or McDavid at center, doesn't mean we don't have to beat these teams to win the cup. You still have to get past these teams to win the cup

I agree that teams can build great teams like St Louis and Vegas have that don't have high end generational talents and are better than the teams that do. But to say we have no reason why we can't be that good isn't accurate. I gave 2 and to me there 4.

1. Gio is 37 turning 38 this year. He was hands down our best dman and now he is just one of the bunch. Nobody has stepped up to take that role from him.

2. Lucic is one of the worst contracts in the league. We don't have the depth we need to beat top teams because we have a $5.25 mill forward who is a 4th liner these days.

3. Bennett situation is a distraction. He has very little trade value but there seems to be an issue with him and I'm not sure it gets fixed until he is traded.

4. Our prospect pool isn't very good. Zary and Pelletier are good but they may be a couple years away. Vegas has added Glass this year who is better than anyone we have in our system. Nice to add guys like that when you land Pietrangelo via free agency. The blues have added Kyrou to the mix. We have added Valimaki and he looks good but d take longer to impact the team and these teams are already better than we are.

I like this core still but IMO we need to be building for next year and take this year to fix some issues.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I suppose one reason you trade a player but keep the coach is the message it sends to the rest of the team, as in, you’ve underperformed for 4 coaches, you are accountable as well.

As opposed to sending a message to the players (all players around the league) that the Flames management team is so inept at performing the most basic of function of coach selection that they would not fix that most glaring of weaknesses before screwing with the most expensive assets the team has at its disposal? This has been one embarrassment after another since the Gulutzan hiring. When does someone with a brain step in and do something about this because it isn't a good look.

My god, if you were looking for employment and you saw an opening with a company who has a reputation of having ####ty management and not using its human resources to their greatest potential do you have any interest in applying? Not a chance. You avoid them like the plague. And how quickly do their own human resources finally clue the hell in and start bolting? Quality management is a big part of stability, which is why good organizations beat the weeds and make sure they are hiring the most qualified and capable individuals. This also includes digging into backgrounds and making sure they are quality people, which Treliving has managed to very publicly screw. These are the type of things that gives the organization a blackeye and a reputation. Hire the right person for the love of god!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by New Era

As opposed to sending a message to the players (all players around the league) that the Flames management team is so inept at performing the most basic of function of coach selection that they would not fix that most glaring of weaknesses before screwing with the most expensive assets the team has at its disposal? This has been one embarrassment after another since the Gulutzan hiring. When does someone with a brain step in and do something about this because it isn't a good look.

My god, if you were looking for employment and you saw an opening with a company who has a reputation of having ####ty management and not using its human resources to their greatest potential do you have any interest in applying? Not a chance. You avoid them like the plague. And how quickly do their own human resources finally clue the hell in and start bolting? Quality management is a big part of stability, which is why good organizations beat the weeds and make sure they are hiring the most qualified and capable individuals. This also includes digging into backgrounds and making sure they are quality people, which Treliving has managed to very publicly screw. These are the type of things that gives the organization a blackeye and a reputation. Hire the right person for the love of god!

Well, in this case, the personnel decisions include the players. I’d say the due diligence complaint on signing James Neal is way worse than with Peters. Lots of people knew Neal’s issues but I defy any GM to have sussed out Peter’s incident unless by accident. At least two other GM hired Peters as either an AC or HC before Treliving and they didn’t know about it.

Plenty of GMs have missed character issues with coaches. Partly this is because of changing norms. Partly it’s because no one records this stuff in junior or the minors. And there’s a sizeable portion that still don’t care. Sutter has been accused of physical mistreatment, people still talk about Hartley fondly, Tocchet has a job, etc.

Tell me who, when Peters got accused, said “oh yeah I knew about that”.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, in this case, the personnel decisions include the players. I’d say the due diligence complaint on signing James Neal is way worse than with Peters. Lots of people knew Neal’s issues but I defy any GM to have sussed out Peter’s incident unless by accident. At least two other GM hired Peters as either an AC or HC before Treliving and they didn’t know about it.

Plenty of GMs have missed character issues with coaches. Partly this is because of changing norms. Partly it’s because no one records this stuff in junior or the minors. And there’s a sizeable portion that still don’t care. Sutter has been accused of physical mistreatment, people still talk about Hartley fondly, Tocchet has a job, etc.

Tell me who, when Peters got accused, said “oh yeah I knew about that”.

The players knew it. Just like the players knew James Neal was a real prick. I wonder if anyone talked with them? It's all part of doing their due diligence, which they didn't do. That's the whole point. You go with known quantities so you have that paper trail of success and paper trail of behaviors.

[topfiverecords]

Time to trade for Panarin. Rangers can pay off some ufa prospect to “be” traded, but it will really be Panarin hiding out here but playing for us under a secret identity.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by New Era

The players knew it. Just like the players knew James Neal was a real prick. I wonder if anyone talked with them? It's all part of doing their due diligence, which they didn't do. That's the whole point. You go with known quantities so you have that paper trail of success and paper trail of behaviors.

What players? The ones on the Rockford Ice Hogs in 2010? How many GMs canvass the players from every year of a coach’s tenure in the minors, when he was hired by two NHL teams since? I guess the Wings and the Canes were just as terrible at DD.

James Neal “being a prick” wasn’t the issue. And what his issue was was pretty easily identifiable and it’s one of the things I totally blame Treliving for. His biggest screwup in player deals IMO.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The problem is some people will look from the outside and say “this core has failed under 4 coaches so it is 100% on them”.

Flames fans know they had Hartley who didn’t really sniff at a head coaching job before or after he was with the Flames and has been in the KHL since. Gulutzan was an assistant who had a failed run as head coach and has since been an assistant on a team that hasn’t made the playoffs since he joined them 3 years ago. Peters was a head coach for 4 years and missed the playoffs every year until he came to the Flames and he managed the team so poorly down the stretch they were completely unprepared for their first round. Now Ward who has been a long time assistant who seems in over his head and makes so many head scratching decisions.

This team has had 4 coaches but they have yet to have a really proven guy and it is no surprise the only guy who was a Stanley Cup winning head coach got the most out of this group (with quite easily the worst roster of all the years of this core group)

Anybody bring this up at the Seasons Ticket Holder Meetings? I wonder if they even realize what they do in this regard.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I’m not saying Edmonton is better on paper or otherwise. I’m saying they are better than last year because they are now a two line team rather than open, and each of those two lines have a better centre. Both Calgary and Edmonton have two 2/3 top lines (both are missing another winger) but Calgary arguably has better wingers and Edmonton has better centres.

Calgary’s problem has, to me, always been partly that the top line couldn’t be depended to play against the opposing top line - they couldn’t go strength v strength, which cuts down on minutes for Monahan/Gaudreau (and therefore scoring opportunities). Now, if they’re overwhelming offensively, you worry about it less, but they are also not that hard to defend if you know their tendencies.

I agree 100%. I dont know that they will ever be that way either and still produce offensively. Try a system more tailored to the way they naturally play, let the creative juices flow. Markstrom can bail them out. It worked the Peters year. More time in the offensive end means less time getting scored on. Or give up and continue trying for mistake free low event hockey by loading up on Lindholms and Forsbergs. They have to pick 1 lane. I prefer they go the exciting route though.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Even if it isn't in the cards for the Flames to have a MacKinnon or McDavid at center, doesn't mean we don't have to beat these teams to win the cup. You still have to get past these teams to win the cup

I agree that teams can build great teams like St Louis and Vegas have that don't have high end generational talents and are better than the teams that do. But to say we have no reason why we can't be that good isn't accurate. I gave 2 and to me there 4.

1. Gio is 37 turning 38 this year. He was hands down our best dman and now he is just one of the bunch. Nobody has stepped up to take that role from him.

2. Lucic is one of the worst contracts in the league. We don't have the depth we need to beat top teams because we have a $5.25 mill forward who is a 4th liner these days.

3. Bennett situation is a distraction. He has very little trade value but there seems to be an issue with him and I'm not sure it gets fixed until he is traded.

4. Our prospect pool isn't very good. Zary and Pelletier are good but they may be a couple years away. Vegas has added Glass this year who is better than anyone we have in our system. Nice to add guys like that when you land Pietrangelo via free agency. The blues have added Kyrou to the mix. We have added Valimaki and he looks good but d take longer to impact the team and these teams are already better than we are.

I like this core still but IMO we need to be building for next year and take this year to fix some issues.

St. Louis is interesting. They fumbled around for years, until they got a really good mix. Their cup year Tarasenko was playing like an elite player, and O’Reilly had a career year. And Binnington was a bolt of lightning. It was a team thought, that no one would have said had an elite player going in.

Worth mentioning they went 7-9-3 under Yeo and then changed coaches. Of course, if you told me that Craig Berube was gonna be the answer I’d have laughed.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Time to trade for Panarin. Rangers can pay off some ufa prospect to “be” traded, but it will really be Panarin hiding out here but playing for us under a secret identity.

Looks at jersey

"Not Panarin"

Shakes fist in anger

TRELIVINNNNNNG

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Psytic

I agree 100%. I dont know that they will ever be that way either and still produce offensively. Try a system more tailored to the way they naturally play, let the creative juices flow. Markstrom can bail them out. It worked the Peters year. More time in the offensive end means less time getting scored on. Or give up and continue trying for mistake free low event hockey by loading up on Lindholms and Forsbergs. They have to pick 1 lane. I prefer they go the exciting route though.

The problem with option A was what happened at PO time because the game changes so much. The same free for all that lets Bennett succeed makes it hard to be Johnny Gaudreau. Offensive players have to have that “bust around or through the slashes/holds/etc” ability of a Mackinnon.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Even if it isn't in the cards for the Flames to have a MacKinnon or McDavid at center, doesn't mean we don't have to beat these teams to win the cup. You still have to get past these teams to win the cup

I agree that teams can build great teams like St Louis and Vegas have that don't have high end generational talents and are better than the teams that do. But to say we have no reason why we can't be that good isn't accurate. I gave 2 and to me there 4.

1. Gio is 37 turning 38 this year. He was hands down our best dman and now he is just one of the bunch. Nobody has stepped up to take that role from him.

2. Lucic is one of the worst contracts in the league. We don't have the depth we need to beat top teams because we have a $5.25 mill forward who is a 4th liner these days.

3. Bennett situation is a distraction. He has very little trade value but there seems to be an issue with him and I'm not sure it gets fixed until he is traded.

4. Our prospect pool isn't very good. Zary and Pelletier are good but they may be a couple years away. Vegas has added Glass this year who is better than anyone we have in our system. Nice to add guys like that when you land Pietrangelo via free agency. The blues have added Kyrou to the mix. We have added Valimaki and he looks good but d take longer to impact the team and these teams are already better than we are.

I like this core still but IMO we need to be building for next year and take this year to fix some issues.

Blow it up and keep drafting 1st until we fall ass backwards into the next Crosby or McDavid? It simply wont happen with this mgmt. Im not saying its not a good idea it obviously is a way to get a cost controlled allstar (although not guaranteed). Will that ever happen with this ownership and mgmt ? Not a chance. Hasn't been that way in 40 yrs.

The best we can hope for is to be the old Sharks. Im just being realistic. This group will never ever ever commit to a full rebuild for more than 2 or 3 yrs. even if we did the chances of the Flames getting a McDavid over another Bennett is pretty slim with how things have gone for them. Id love them to get an all star C and build from the ground up but it isnt going to happen.

Best use of our collective minds imo is to find a way to get at least somewhat competitive past the 2nd round through star trades / re-tool (they wont tank for more than 2 years tops which probably gets us back to being a 1 st round team in another 7 yrs again rinse / repeat).

My expectations are so tempered by this team I would cry tears of joy just being like the Sharks before they imploded. Just hanging around and being "good" year after year.

Edit: This was really in response to the other Oilers post not this one i'm quoting, I think we basically agree.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Psytic

Anybody bring this up at the Seasons Ticket Holder Meetings? I wonder if they even realize what they do in this regard.

I questioned the Bill Peters hiring at the 2018 meeting before the draft.

I remember it well. I told him I heard the rumors and was concerned because Carolina had 4 straight playoff misses under Peters so I did some research on google and the Hurricanes fans had a lot of the similar complaints about Peters as Flames fans had on Gulutzan. I then asked why he didn’t go after a more proven coach like D. Sutter or AV.

He glommed onto my google comment and said “I don’t use google to pick my coaches” went on about the World Championship experience and how much he believed Peters was the right guy. I ate crow until the playoffs that year and then we all knew what happened in year 2

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I questioned the Bill Peters hiring at the 2018 meeting before the draft.

I remember it well. I told him I heard the rumors and was concerned because Carolina had 4 straight playoff misses under Peters so I did some research on google and the Hurricanes fans had a lot of the similar complaints about Peters as Flames fans had on Gulutzan. I then asked why he didn’t go after a more proven coach like D. Sutter or AV.

He glommed onto my google comment and said “I don’t use google to pick my coaches” went on about the World Championship experience and how much he believed Peters was the right guy. I ate crow until the playoffs that year and then we all knew what happened in year 2

Heh.

Maybe he SHOULD use google to pick a coach if he gets to pick another. Whatever the #### system he's using now ain't workin'

[Calgary4LIfe]

@ Vinny - can't quote error (grumble).


Not only were the complaints similar about Peters vs Gulutzan from both fanbases, but the underlying metrics were similar too from what I recall. I thought it was a terrible move, that I was pleasantly surprised with for 3/4 of a season, but then reverted back to crap.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

@ Vinny - can't quote error (grumble).


Not only were the complaints similar about Peters vs Gulutzan from both fanbases, but the underlying metrics were similar too from what I recall. I thought it was a terrible move, that I was pleasantly surprised with for 3/4 of a season, but then reverted back to crap.

That should have been unsurprising given GG was a Babcock disciple and Peters was an actual Babcock AC.

[Flamesforever99]

If you guys think that Tre is going to trade for anyone at the deadline then you clearly forgot what's happened the last two deadlines. Nothing is going to happen no change is coming till the off season and that's if we're lucky.

We never needed a goalie, Cam and Rittich were good. This team has been searching for a top 6 forward the last 5 years now and each time they end up being duds because our system is whack.

Letting Brodie walk was a mistake I know he turns it over but outside of Andersson and Gio no one on the blue line has offensive awareness

Just remember boys if Eric Francis opens his mouth and says flames are looking to add a forward at the deadline...... IT"S CAP!!!!!!!

Tobby Rieder has more goals and points combined than the three scrubs we signed for "depth."

Mediocrity will always be our destiny.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The problem with option A was what happened at PO time because the game changes so much. The same free for all that lets Bennett succeed makes it hard to be Johnny Gaudreau. Offensive players have to have that “bust around or through the slashes/holds/etc” ability of a Mackinnon.

I dont know. I don't think a Peters or Hartley system cant work, I just think they need to commit to player personnel for one style or the other or they will get beat at their own game by teams that are bigger or faster. They cant keep trying to be all things at all times. Either be a low event responsible team with rock solid goaltending and d all the way through the line up or let the top line off their leash and commit to a speed game with speedy players and let Markstrom bail them out on the occasional event like Montreal. One of the two. The Hawks even look better right now and they dont even have Toews or Dach, they should be able to get some wins without a star 1C in the North Div at least. I think the Flames got beat at their own game and Peters had no answer as half the team is actually down right slow.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Psytic

I dont know. I don't think a Peters or Hartley system cant work, I just think they need to commit to player personnel for one style or the other or they will get beat at their own game by teams that are bigger or faster. They cant keep trying to be all things at all times. Either be a low event responsible team with rock solid goaltending and d all the way through the line up or let the top line off their leash and commit to a speed game with speedy players and let Markstrom bail them out on the occasional event like Montreal. One of the two. The Hawks even look better right now and they dont even have Toews or Dach, they should be able to get some wins without a star 1C in the North Div at least. I think the Flames got beat at their own game and Peters had no answer as half the team is actually down right slow.

I’m of the belief that most systems work if the players commit. Some may be better suited than others to personnel, but few teams have one style of player anyway. I mean, did Babcock really have less talented guys in Toronto than Detroit? Or did the Toronto guys just not buy in?

And by this I don’t excuse the coach because they need to sell the system to the players.