In addition to playing a bigger role in the d-zone, just look at who is on his right wing. He went from Lindholm, who led the team in goals last year and is likely our most dynamic, complete forward, to... Dominik Simon? Josh Leivo?
Ward can talk about giving the line more O-zone starts to exploit matchups, but the revolving door on the other wing makes it hard to do that. Plus, Johnny is more adept in transition which means you need guys who can keep pace and attack at their blue line. They’re not a cycle, grind it out line like Tkachuk/Backlund/Mangiapane.
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I think he’s played pretty good this year and I think we just saw how much we missed him the past two games.
But if anything did catch up to him injury wise I think it’s his hand/wrist injuries. His passing and hockey sense look fine this year, his skating seems better if anything not worse, but his shot has lost all of that zip and quick release he used to have.
He still gets into good spots for those chances but they just aren’t off his stick as quickly with as much pace anymore.
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I think he’s played pretty good this year and I think we just saw how much we missed him the past two games.
But if anything did catch up to him injury wise I think it’s his hand/wrist injuries. His passing and hockey sense look fine this year, his skating seems better if anything not worse, but his shot has lost all of that zip and quick release he used to have.
He still gets into good spots for those chances but they just aren’t off his stick as quickly with as much pace anymore.
Yeah I don't think anyone in this thread is trying to say he's irrelevant or anything, he's a huge piece of the team, and when he's missing, they aren't going to win much. Which shows that they are not a very strong team, and when he plays, they don't become elite, they become competitive.
I liked the idea of sets of pairs for depth, but if the corollary idea is that the third guy on any unit is just a fill-in, "could be anybody" type thing, that's obviously not true and obviously not working. And again just shows that the team is missing fundamental pieces. Like, right wingers.
I think he’s played pretty good this year and I think we just saw how much we missed him the past two games.
But if anything did catch up to him injury wise I think it’s his hand/wrist injuries. His passing and hockey sense look fine this year, his skating seems better if anything not worse, but his shot has lost all of that zip and quick release he used to have.
He still gets into good spots for those chances but they just aren’t off his stick as quickly with as much pace anymore.
It’s a fair point, his shot was lethal and it seems that just hasn’t been a factor a while. I personally just get nervous when a young player develops back problems. There’s so much that can be involved in that, and could keep an athlete from going a “full 100%” if not for pain then even for fear of re-injury.
Anyways to me something just isn’t the same, he should be hitting his absolute prime, not plateauing or forbid declining. And yeah I think everyone recognizes how critical this single player/position is to team success, that again goes to my original point of how the Flames’ fortunes so well mirror that of their top center.
Did Joe and Steve play/stats drop off before they win the Cup?
Cause that is what's happening to Monahan now.
Yes they did:
Yzerman went from 1.5 pts per game avg to around 1. This is a very famous hockey story around bowman asking Yzerman whether he wanted to score or win. Similar can be said for Modano.
Sakic was all over the map for his entire career. If the Nordiques had traded him in 94 during one of his "down seasons", the Avs don't win the cup a year later.
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Monahan is on track for his expected minimum .75 point per game
His career year, he racked up the points when the team was playing differently. Monahan Gaudreau and Lindholm were throwing the puck around like the globetrotters, and Gio was activating because he knew he could trust Brodie. Those were the days of purple Gatorade
This team is a perimeter team now. Breakouts use 2-3 of the skaters on one side of the ice.
Skill players often differentiate themselves because of what they can do at high speed, where the pluggers struggle to keep up. Until the Flames play with pace, move the puck and use their linemates, I don’t see Monahan being enabled to satisfy you.
Gio aging and Brodie leaving hurt this team. Bad coaching is also hurting the team. Monahan can do better but I think it’s the team game that needs work
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Yzerman went from 1.5 pts per game avg to around 1. This is a very famous hockey story around bowman asking Yzerman whether he wanted to score or win. Similar can be said for Modano.
Sakic was all over the map for his entire career. If the Nordiques had traded him in 94 during one of his "down seasons", the Avs don't win the cup a year later.
Joe Sakic had his career high the year they won the Conference and several high years after that.
Yzerman did dropped off a little bit but still point per game during their Cup years and he had Fedorov.
Point is you cant look at the way Monahan is going and say he is going to do what Yzerman and Sakic did. He is trending down big time.
Last edited by Flamesfan05; 02-21-2021 at 11:03 AM.
Reason: correct grammar
Currently the 38th ranked scoring center in the league, with at least 5 guys in front of him listed as centers that aren't centers. Guys like Miller, Nugent-Hopkins, Hoffman etc are some of them.
And Gaudreau the other night said it is hard to play without "our best player" when he missed the first Oilers game. I think I will listen to actual NHL players about Sean instead of somebody sitting at home.
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Monahan is an important part of this team as the last 2 games have shown.
Monahan also isn't an elite centre or capable of being effective both offensively and responsible defensively at the same time.
Its great that he has changed his game to be more physical and defensive but he's not a 3rd/4th line centre.
Unfortunately that isn't good enough for what this team needs to be highly competitive.
And he's certainly not the only issue either, not trying to throw everything on him.
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Joe Sakic had his career high the year they won the Conference and several high years after that.
Yzerman did dropped off a little bit but still point per game during their Cup years and he had Fedorov.
Point is you cant look at the way Monahan is going and say he is going to do what Yzerman and Sakic did. He is trending down big time.
Yzerman didn't do anything until the Russian5 showed up, Lidstrom and the 10 other superstars that Detroit paid to come, i.e. Shanahan, Hull etc. Everyone seems to forget Detroit was spending $70M per year when the rest of the league was spending around $35m (except the Rangers and Avs). Everyone has this love affair with Yzerman forever but he couldn't lead the Wings to anything by himself.
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Did Joe and Steve play/stats drop off before they win the Cup?
Cause that is what's happening to Monahan now.
Yzerman's last six season's before Detroit finally started making it past the second round of the playoffs:
102pts
155pts
127pts
108pts
103pts
137pts
Then Bowman sat him down and told him he had to become a more complete player if he wanted the team to win in the playoffs. The next season, Yzerman put up 82pts as a solid two-way C and the Wings made it to the Finals for the first time since 1966.
His two best point totals after that were 95 and 85, but he won 3 Cups and went down in history as perhaps the greatest Captain the game has ever known.
Edit: But don't take my word for it...
Spoiler!
Quote:
One of the most difficult conversations Scotty Bowman had in his magnificent coaching career was sitting down to tell Steve Yzerman he had to change his game.
Yzerman was a star unlike few before him: In the years prior to Bowman coaching the Detroit Red Wings, he had scored 65 goals, 62, 58, 51 and 50. Only Mario Lemieux had more goals in that time period. Only Wayne Gretzky and Lemieux had more points.
“I said to him: ‘You’ve got to play a lot differently if this team is going to win,’ ” said Bowman, describing the extreme challenge in Ken Dryden’s book Scotty: A Hockey Life Like No Other.
“Hearing Scotty’s words, Yzerman might have sulked,” wrote Dryden. “Or he might have turned against Scotty and fought back …
“In the five years previous (to the conversation), Yzerman had finished in the top 10 in scoring … In the remaining 11 years of his career, he would finish in the top 10 only once.” In those years, Detroit won three Stanley Cups with Bowman coaching and Yzerman leading the way as captain.
Why are we comparing Monahan to first ballot HOF players?
Monahan is the 90th highest paid player in the NHL. That means he is either paid to be the worst 3rd best player in the league for a team or the best 4th best player. (Assuming equal distribution of players vs pay to all the teams)
This is the issue with the Flames. People expect Monny and JG to be 2 superstars driving the team when in reality they should be the 3rd and 4th best players on the team dictated by their pay.
MT is our highest payed played at 68th overall.
The Flames do not have any players paid like a top 2 for a team. And that is our biggest issue. We do not have the top end talent AND we do not have 3/4th line
depth.
Were not top heavy OR deep. It is a horrendously constructed team when looking at where money is spent.
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Yzerman's last six season's before Detroit finally started making it past the second round of the playoffs:
102pts
155pts
127pts
108pts
103pts
137pts
Then Bowman sat him down and told him he had to become a more complete player if he wanted the team to win in the playoffs. The next season, Yzerman put up 82pts as a solid two-way C and the Wings made it to the Finals for the first time since 1966.
His two best point totals after that were 95 and 85, but he won 3 Cups and went down in history as perhaps the greatest Captain the game has ever known.
This thread title. LOL. The only 'downfall' of Monahan is him adapting his game to be a better two-way C. That is exactly what I wanted him to do after the loss to Dallas last season. I also wanted to see him traded unless he changed his game and credit to him he has done that.
Monahan is what he is; a borderline #1C who can sometimes produce like a true #1 C but will never be the play driver that is necessary to control the game. By improving his two-way game he can possibly take the next step to being more effective rather than just being a triggerman.
If we're talking about centreman who have failed to make an impact and are the reason the team sucks now, one can look at Sam Bennett not panning out. It was supposed to be Bennett, Monahan, Backlund down the middle. If Bennett was a true #1 C he would be in his prime now and undoubtedly the team better.
He is what he is though so no point debating that further. But I don't think the fall of this team coincides with Monahan's 'downfall'. There is no downfall from him. He's just a player looking to adapt his game. The downfall is Gio's big decline which leaves a pretty big hole on the top pairing, the downfall of not getting a true NHL-calibre head coach and the downfall of acquiring players who play refuse to play with passion and don't produce as depth pieces.
Last edited by Huntingwhale; 02-21-2021 at 11:25 AM.
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Joe Sakic had his career high the year they won the Conference and several high years after that.
Yzerman did dropped off a little bit but still point per game during their Cup years and he had Fedorov.
Point is you cant look at the way Monahan is going and say he is going to do what Yzerman and Sakic did. He is trending down big time.
If you want me to argue that Monahan is comparable to 1st ballot hall of famers...we are wasting both of our time. He is not that. In my view he is a 1st line center that is giving up regular season scoring to round out his game.
