Blow it up!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I disagree with this take. Easily his worst move as GM was trading a 1st and 2 2nds for Hamonic. It weakened their asset base when they were in a spot to contend in 2019 and Hamonic turned Brodie into a whipping boy and made Hanifin expendable to many this offseason.

In hindsight the Neal signing was a poor one no doubt and easily his worst free agent signing. That is a challenge of being GM of an undesirable market. I was of a sound belief the team needed another top 6 scorer that offseason. Lindholm was an upgrade on the outgoing Ferland but that 2018 Flames team really needed a top 6 forward. With the Hamonic trade bleeding the organization of trade assets Treliving went out to the market and got the highest rated UFA left. I remember Neal rumored to be looking for 6x6 so I was happy we got one less year and under 6 without any trade restrictions.

The difference is that Hamonic made sense on paper and just turned out to be a lesser player than thought, which was unfortunate.

Neal made sense on paper BUT the issues he had and which became a problem were known - not in stats, but if someone did any digging into off-ice reports. That lack of due diligence is a problem.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

If you have a chance to go back and review the threads, not everyone was celebrating the Neal signing. That was just after he made the same mistake with Brouwer. Trev's 2nd mistake was not signing them to show me contracts so he could see what he had.

Those two moves pushed the rebuild ahead while neither player plays for the Flames,

Neither player was available on a show me contract, so why even mention it.


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[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The difference is that Hamonic made sense on paper and just turned out to be a lesser player than thought, which was unfortunate.

Neal made sense on paper BUT the issues he had and which became a problem were known - not in stats, but if someone did any digging into off-ice reports. That lack of due diligence is a problem.

That’s fair but still regarding Hamonic he had requested a trade to western Canada and was coming off a bad year and still got an absolute premium in return. I think this was a result of Treliving having tunnel vision on a player and doing what it took to get him. I don’t mind that approach for the right player but not a stay at home second pair D.

I was excited about both deals when they happened. I assumed Hamonic gave the Flames 2 legit top pairings on the backend and I thought Neal added a 30 goal threat in our top 6 forwards.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by New Era

Yes. The signing if Neal was a massive #### up, which brought us Lucic. That decision alone would get someone in my industry #### canned. Trading a crap contract for another immovable contract would get you blackballed.

Neal was the problem in that situation.

By production, Lucic was a net positive last year relative to Neal; he put up nearly the same offense while being vastly better defensively and filling a role that we needed, and still need.

Lucic is overpaid by $2.5M. Neal is overpaid by probably $4M, and doesn’t fill a role.

I get not liking the contract - I don’t either. But Milan Lucic the player is doing his job more nights than not, his teammates seem to like him, and he has championship experience.

Compared to James Neal, who was getting Dougie Hamilton money for Freddie Hamilton production.

[btimbit]

Warning, possible unrealistic fan-boy moment coming up:

Do whatever the hell you have to do to jump on these Pittsburgh rebuild/Crosby trade rumours.

[GranteedEV]

I am not ready to give up on this core.

No, I do not think this is an elite core, but it's no worse a core than most cup runners-up in the last decade, and a few cup winners.

Blow it up when we get an NHL head coach and the results remain unchanged.

Here is one very basic criteria you can have for whether a head coach is NHL caliber

Has _______ gone to the AHL Calder Cup final in the last decade or the NHL Conference Finals?

No?

Then no thanks.

Yes?

Then maybe, if their style is a fit on the ice. I don't care if they're a player's coach or disciplinarian, I care if they know how to get the most out of our best players.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Neither player was available on a show me contract, so why even mention it.


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Then they shouldn't have signed them to fat contracts that they would end up sitting on and doing pretty much nothing for the team. Give them a nice show me contract with a promise to extend if they prove their worth.

[Manhattanboy]

Maybe Tre will interview a few guys first this time. Do a little diligence.

[SportsJunky]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Maybe Tre will interview a few guys first this time. Do a little diligence.

People are still trotting out this gem? He hired his guy. End of story. What would interviewing other candidates accomplish? Now if the complaint is that he made a bad choice, then fine, we can agree on that. But it was his choice. More official interviewing wasn't going to change that. I'm always surprised when people bring this up.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by SportsJunky

People are still trotting out this gem? He hired his guy. End of story. What would interviewing other candidates accomplish? Now if the complaint is that he made a bad choice, then fine, we can agree on that. But it was his choice. More official interviewing wasn't going to change that. I'm always surprised when people bring this up.

He probably should have used green text.

[SportsJunky]

oops, if that's the case, my bad.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I am not ready to give up on this core.

No, I do not think this is an elite core, but it's no worse a core than most cup runners-up in the last decade, and a few cup winners.

Blow it up when we get an NHL head coach and the results remain unchanged.

Here is one very basic criteria you can have for whether a head coach is NHL caliber

Has _______ gone to the AHL Calder Cup final in the last decade or the NHL Conference Finals?

No?

Then no thanks.

Yes?

Then maybe, if their style is a fit on the ice. I don't care if they're a player's coach or disciplinarian, I care if they know how to get the most out of our best players.

Love your optimism regarding this core. Unfortunately I have given up completely on this group of players, they have proven multiple times that they are not going to get it done.

Anyways I respectfully disagree with the above bolded.

All of those teams in the SCF, whether the winner or the runner up, have elite depth down the middle, way above average top 6, and at least one elite d man. This iteration of the Flames have never had elite depth down the middle. Monahan, Backlund and Lindholm are decent players but get easily outmatched pretty quickly by any SCF winner or runner up's depth down the middle.

[Macman]

I won't blow it up completely maybe just trade a top player or two. I think Brad Treliving has signed some good players here.
Hire a head coach and let him hire his own assistants.
I'm not sure what to think about Geoff Ward other than seeing him in interviews and games but there have been quite a few things pointed out including who he plays and when but if he's that bad as head coach how bad was he as an assistant?
Wasn't Brian Burke the head of hockey operations and looking over everything, it doesn't look like much has changed and the same issues whatever they are still persist.

[jlh2640]

They are a fragile core with mediocre results at most times. Words are just words and I am done with the belief that this group will ever show the potential they had 2 seasons ago. 500 hockey team is all they are now.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Warning, possible unrealistic fan-boy moment coming up:

Do whatever the hell you have to do to jump on these Pittsburgh rebuild/Crosby trade rumours.

Hearing rumblings Burke was planted there by the Flames

[Roof-Daddy]

Yeah, Crosby is sick of dumb asses calling McDavid the best player in the world and wants to come to Calgary to put him in his place, head to head.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Then they shouldn't have signed them to fat contracts that they would end up sitting on and doing pretty much nothing for the team. Give them a nice show me contract with a promise to extend if they prove their worth.

The market for these players were long term contracts. So why even mention show me contracts.

And collateral promises are not allowed.

You may as well say that Tkachuk should have been signed for 8 years at $3M per season.


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[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

The market for these players were long term contracts. So why even mention show me contracts.

And collateral promises are not allowed.

You may as well say that Tkachuk should have been signed for 8 years at $3M per season.


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Tkachuk has already proven far and beyond what we got out of those 2 players so that clearly is not a good comparison.

Those contracts ended up handcuffing the team when there were likely much better options available. A call up would have been an opportunity to develop a player; At least this way we still had cap space to sign a young proven player or a RW.

Neal and Brouwer took a roster spot, basically did nothing with it. The Flames come out of that rebuild a little too soon. We got 2 useless players trending down. If they were not available for show me contracts then the Flames should have been patient and done their homework.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Tkachuk has already proven far and beyond what we got out of those 2 players so that clearly is not a good comparison.

Those contracts ended up handcuffing the team when there were likely much better options available. A call up would have been an opportunity to develop a player; At least this way we still had cap space to sign a young proven player or a RW.

Neal and Brouwer took a roster spot, basically did nothing with it. The Flames come out of that rebuild a little too soon. We got 2 useless players trending down. If they were not available for show me contracts then the Flames should have been patient and done their homework.

You are completely missing the point.

It’s a waste of time to suggest that Treliving should have signed theses players to contracts that were completely below market.


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[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

You are completely missing the point.

It’s a waste of time to suggest that Treliving should have signed theses players to contracts that were completely below market.


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I'm not absolving Treliving sorry, I do get the point.