The Deal With Geoff Ward

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Madrox

I don't know that there's any truth to that. Iggy, at least based on history, isn't likely to be a good coach. Most good coaches are guys that were almost good enough, or guys that had to work their nuts off to be in the league. Gretzky's the easiest example, he couldn't understand why guys couldn't do what he wanted them to. The guys who are the best coaches are the guys who had to work the hardest to have a chance, because they already had to study the game to even be in the conversation.

I think this take is a gross generalization.

Dale Hawerchuk (RIP) was doing very well as a coach in the OHL.

Rod Brind'Amour has been one of the best coaches in the NHL since taking over in Carolina.

Over on the GM side of things we've seen former star players - Ron Francis, Ron Hextall, Steve Yzerman, and Joe Sakic - build some mighty solid rosters.

I think like anything, the most important thing is experience. You have to coach at lower competitive levels (Junior, Minor Pro, College) before you're ready to coach at the highest level. Gretzky jumped straight to head coach in the NHL - of course he failed. He never earned his job in the first place.

The idea that bottom of roster grinders make better coaches is flawed.

[Voodooman]

How about a Go Fund Me for Flames ownership to hire a real interim coach? Apparently cash flow is a leading reason there isn’t someone new. Can we find 50,000 Flames fans to each throw in $20, and we’ll hire Boudreau for the rest of the season for $1,000,000. I swear he would do a better job coaching this team via Zoom if he had to wait out a quarantine than Ward could ever do.

I’ll throw in $100 to start....Only 49,995 donations to go!

It would be an interesting way for the fan base to express their displeasure. Raise a bunch of money to be donated to charity in the end to show how fed up we all are.

[kyuss275]

I listened to the Tre interview from yesterday. While it sounded like he was trying to back his team and motivate them , it also sounded like a guy who realizes his job is on the line. I can’t see him doing a coaching change. With 2 weeks quarantine for new coach and a condensed schedule limiting time to implement new strategy, I can’t see it happening this year. Even if flames make the playoffs on the 4th seed , they would get blown out by Toronto. I like Tre a lot but he hitched his wagon to the wrong horse. I have no doubt in my mind that both will be shown the door at end of season . Owners during financial losses let him spend to the cap and the results aren’t good .

I know a lot of posters would like to see Conroy as next Gm but I think they need someone from outside the organization to look at this group. Also I would be scared that conroy would share the same vision as his mentor Tre when it comes to hiring inexperience coaches.

I’m also not happy with the players that told Tkachuk to settle down. His play hasn’t been good and if you take the pest factor out of him , he becomes sorta useless . Look no further than last nights game in the battle of Alberta . Didn’t see Mathew try anything last night . That’s not the tkachuk way.

[genetic_phreek]

Ward was part of the Bruins team that won a championship but in his mind he orchestrated winning the championship.

In all my years as a fan, I don't think I've ever hated a coach as much as I do with Ward. Even his press conferences he thinks he's the king and can do no wrong.

[flambers]

I also listened to the Flames GM, he basically sounded frustrated

However, in my opinion no more coaching changes for this GM....

If the Flames miss the playoffs,

Changes have to happen...

As this roster simply is not good enough

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

I listened to the Tre interview from yesterday. While it sounded like he was trying to back his team and motivate them , it also sounded like a guy who realizes his job is on the line. I can’t see him doing a coaching change. With 2 weeks quarantine for new coach and a condensed schedule limiting time to implement new strategy, I can’t see it happening this year. Even if flames make the playoffs on the 4th seed , they would get blown out by Toronto. I like Tre a lot but he hitched his wagon to the wrong horse. I have no doubt in my mind that both will be shown the door at end of season . Owners during financial losses let him spend to the cap and the results aren’t good .

I know a lot of posters would like to see Conroy as next Gm but I think they need someone from outside the organization to look at this group. Also I would be scared that conroy would share the same vision as his mentor Tre when it comes to hiring inexperience coaches.

I’m also not happy with the players that told Tkachuk to settle down. His play hasn’t been good and if you take the pest factor out of him , he becomes sorta useless . Look no further than last nights game in the battle of Alberta . Didn’t see Mathew try anything last night . That’s not the tkachuk way.

Sutter has said he’d come back to coach a team in Alberta...

Not my preferred choice but I bet you he’d come back on a short term deal and you would get around the quarantine issues since he’s likely just sitting on the farm in Red Deer.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Sutter has said he’d come back to coach a team in Alberta...

Not my preferred choice but I bet you he’d come back on a short term deal and you would get around the quarantine issues since he’s likely just sitting on the farm in Red Deer.

I have my doubts that any experienced winning coach would sign short term. Flames next coach shouldn’t be about getting this team to playoffs this year. Have to look at the big picture. I don’t mind if Sutter is one of the candidates but the next coach shouldn’t be hired because of his postal code and being able to have less quarantine time.

[Erick Estrada]

The thing that is so strange about Ward is that he comes off as a pretty intelligent guy in interviews but he's a total dufus behind the bench. This is Twilight Zone level coaching we have seen from him this year. The roster mismanagement and player deployment is nothing like I have ever seen before but as the losses accumulate I'm seeing some parallels with Greg Gilbert as he's taking out his frustrations on one player and starting to lose the room in the process.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The thing that is so strange about Ward is that he comes off as a pretty intelligent guy in interviews but he's a total dufus behind the bench. This is Twilight Zone level coaching we have seen from him this year. The roster mismanagement and player deployment is nothing like I have ever seen before but as the losses accumulate I'm seeing some parallels with Greg Gilbert as he's taking out his frustrations on one player and starting to lose the room in the process.

I also figured he would be a good communicator. But that doesn't seem to be the case, with the goalie situation in the elimination game being the most damning example.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

I have my doubts that any experienced winning coach would sign short term. Flames next coach shouldn’t be about getting this team to playoffs this year. Have to look at the big picture. I don’t mind if Sutter is one of the candidates but the next coach shouldn’t be hired because of his postal code and being able to have less quarantine time.

I could totally see Sutter doing something similar to Hitchcock in Edmonton and be willing to just finish out a season with no contract into the next year

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I think this take is a gross generalization.

Dale Hawerchuk (RIP) was doing very well as a coach in the OHL.

Rod Brind'Amour has been one of the best coaches in the NHL since taking over in Carolina.

Over on the GM side of things we've seen former star players - Ron Francis, Ron Hextall, Steve Yzerman, and Joe Sakic - build some mighty solid rosters.

I think like anything, the most important thing is experience. You have to coach at lower competitive levels (Junior, Minor Pro, College) before you're ready to coach at the highest level. Gretzky jumped straight to head coach in the NHL - of course he failed. He never earned his job in the first place.

The idea that bottom of roster grinders make better coaches is flawed.

This is a huge generalization but I think it’s a little more natural for a star player to be a GM: Talent recognizes talent. Maybe less so for star player to be coach: Talent thinks all players should be able to make plays like he did.

I do agree that experience is key and you earn your job. Really - star player or guy who never played - it doesn’t seem to make a difference. Badger never played, Quenneville played for years.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The thing that is so strange about Ward is that he comes off as a pretty intelligent guy in interviews but he's a total dufus behind the bench. This is Twilight Zone level coaching we have seen from him this year. The roster mismanagement and player deployment is nothing like I have ever seen before but as the losses accumulate I'm seeing some parallels with Greg Gilbert as he's taking out his frustrations on one player and starting to lose the room in the process.

Could be a case of "I'm smarter than everyone".

Here is a telling stat for me, which supermat (I think) pulled up.

In his one successful North American pro year as a head coach he took over in the middle of the season from Claude Julien, who was promoted to the Canadians HC position. Here are their respective records.

Julien - 33-6-3-3
Ward. - 16-13-5-1

These are shockingly different records with what would seamingly be the same team. I don't know the context of player call-ups, injuries or anything else, but this is a large disparity.

I just don't see what in Ward's body of work make anyone in the Flames organization think he could be a good NHL head coach.

Blaming "the core" because someone with no meaningful history of success can't win is just plain foolish.

I think this reminds me of GG hockey because they both seem to play more to not lose than to win. It feels like players are coached with their major focus to be in not making mistakes.

[Scooter]

[QUOTE=GranteedEV;7747750]I think this take is a gross generalization.

Dale Hawerchuk (RIP) was doing very well as a coach in the OHL.

Rod Brind'Amour has been one of the best coaches in the NHL since taking over in Carolina.

Over on the GM side of things we've seen former star players - Ron Francis, Ron Hextall, Steve Yzerman, and Joe Sakic - build some mighty solid rosters.

I think like anything, the most important thing is experience. You have to coach at lower competitive levels (Junior, Minor Pro, College) before you're ready to coach at the highest level. Gretzky jumped straight to head coach in the NHL - of course he failed. He never earned his job in the first place.

The idea that bottom of roster grinders make better coaches is flawed.[/QUOTE
Brind"Amour is totally respected as a head coach by all his players both for his on ice career and personal fitness work ethic off the ice today.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The thing that is so strange about Ward is that he comes off as a pretty intelligent guy in interviews but he's a total dufus behind the bench. This is Twilight Zone level coaching we have seen from him this year. The roster mismanagement and player deployment is nothing like I have ever seen before but as the losses accumulate I'm seeing some parallels with Greg Gilbert as he's taking out his frustrations on one player and starting to lose the room in the process.

I think he sees the team slipping and he’s desperate to find a magically good combination. Like how Ferland unexpectedly was good with Monahan and Gaudreau.

Desperation leads to bad decisions.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Voodooman

How about a Go Fund Me for Flames ownership to hire a real interim coach? Apparently cash flow is a leading reason there isn’t someone new. Can we find 50,000 Flames fans to each throw in $20, and we’ll hire Boudreau for the rest of the season for $1,000,000. I swear he would do a better job coaching this team via Zoom if he had to wait out a quarantine than Ward could ever do.

I’ll throw in $100 to start....Only 49,995 donations to go!

It would be an interesting way for the fan base to express their displeasure. Raise a bunch of money to be donated to charity in the end to show how fed up we all are.

Appreciate the passion. But if you have $100 to give please direct that to a worthy cause.

I also don't think 1000000 would be enough for Boudreau. He's doing okay not working right now. Which I think is a bit of a factor for some guys. If you are still getting paid, why take a lesser paying job in this environment?

I don't know how long Wards contract is, and I'm not sure if there was a settlement with Peter's which is still being paid. But it might be at a point where it's either Brad himself or one of his assistants who would need to take over

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Madrox

I don't know that there's any truth to that. Iggy, at least based on history, isn't likely to be a good coach. Most good coaches are guys that were almost good enough, or guys that had to work their nuts off to be in the league. Gretzky's the easiest example, he couldn't understand why guys couldn't do what he wanted them to. The guys who are the best coaches are the guys who had to work the hardest to have a chance, because they already had to study the game to even be in the conversation.

Boudreau played parts of 15 years in the minors, Gallant was more or less a grinder with a few solid years in the middle, Tortorella was in the precursor to the ECHL for a half dozen years after college, Quennville was a defensive defenceman in the most offensive period in hockey (you damn near had to try to not score more than 30 points in the early to mid 80s), and Trotz as far as I can tell never played beyond Juniors.

I don't know any top coaches that were also top players, because the guys that had it naturally come to them could never help the guys who didn't. I'd wager of all the great Flames in my lifetime, Mark Giordano is the only one who has a hope in hell of being a great coach, because he had to work his nuts off for every chance he got. Gelinas definitely had talent, but he also had to work and learn, so he might not be half bad. Geoff Ward, well, he doesn't have any history as a player, which is irrelevant until he sucks. He may suck.

This somehow applies to the Sutters. Darryl was arguably the least successful of the Sutter brothers, while Brent seemed to be the most successful. They are inversely successful as head coaches. Brian fell somewhere in the middle of those two as both a player and a coach IMO.


In all seriousness, I really do think that because Gretzky was so good as a player, but terrible as a coach, people have this notion that great players make terrible coaches. I just don't think that Gretzky was willing to put his time in and really learn and gain the experience in becoming an NHL coach.


Jarome is putting his time in right now. Whether he is really serious at eventually becoming and NHL coach, or if he is just wanting to coach his sons, I don't know. I do think that Jarome is a smart person, and if he dedicates himself to the craft of coaching, then I wouldn't bet against him.



I think Iginla has that personality to coach. He is fiery, but controlled. He has been that way his whole career. Smart, fiery, determined, and a strong leader. I think if he really puts his time in and commits, then I really wouldn't be surprised to see him behind the bench in the NHL eventually.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

This is probably the worst coached Flames team that I have been alive long enough to remember.

I didn't think I would get through the Brent Sutter years...and then along came Gulutzman and I pretty well gave up on hockey...and now Ward. The list of terrible coaches the Flames have gone through is mind boggling...and yet it continues.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

Could be a case of "I'm smarter than everyone".

Here is a telling stat for me, which supermat (I think) pulled up.

In his one successful North American pro year as a head coach he took over in the middle of the season from Claude Julien, who was promoted to the Canadians HC position. Here are their respective records.

Julien - 33-6-3-3
Ward. - 16-13-5-1

These are shockingly different records with what would seamingly be the same team. I don't know the context of player call-ups, injuries or anything else, but this is a large disparity.

I just don't see what in Ward's body of work make anyone in the Flames organization think he could be a good NHL head coach.

Blaming "the core" because someone with no meaningful history of success can't win is just plain foolish.

I think this reminds me of GG hockey because they both seem to play more to not lose than to win. It feels like players are coached with their major focus to be in not making mistakes.

I agree with GioforPM that there have been a lot of contradictory, and even flat out wrong takes, with respect to Ward's coaching and systems.

However, there have also been plenty of accurate takes. And there are some real sources of concern, that shouldn't simply be swept away, just because there are also issues that aren't the fault of the coaches.

Jiri mentioned that he thought Ward would be a good communicator, but it appears that he hasn't been. I agree with Jiri, and was likewise surprised by that. Of all the things that Ward might or might not be, I figured communication would be one his strengths. But it hasn't been.

Another major source of concern for me refers to the bolded above - that much of what Ward is preaching comes down to playing not to lose. Gulutzan called it 50/50 hockey and it permeated everything he did. Ward seems to be following the same script. It is all about individual battles, support and numbers, and positioning. Maintaining 50/50 hockey. Playing safe. However,

1) it is boring as #### (just like with Gulutzan), and
2) it doesn't suit the Flames' roster

Ward seems like a great guy. He has a solid resume as an assistant coach. But he seems to be in over his head right now, and he is deploying a strategy that has little chance of success with the horses that he is running with.

And he appears to be becoming more and more desparate.

[mikeecho]

Originally Posted by redforever

I didn't think I would get through the Brent Sutter years...and then along came Gulutzman and I pretty well gave up on hockey...and now Ward. The list of terrible coaches the Flames have gone through is mind boggling...and yet it continues.

This version of the Flames reminds me of the Brent years. Those years were ... pathetic.

[tvp2003]

Any chance Ward is a closet racist and we just need a former player to tweet about it?