Flames Identity Crisis

[rooster]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You and I are defining skilled differently. Skill in the context of “a skilled and creative team” =/= merely scoring a lot of goals. Dino Ciccerelli scored a lot of goals, Brett Hull scored a lot but they weren’t creative.

This team has a couple guys who can really shoot well - Lindholm, Monahan. It has a couple guys who skate well - Mangiapane and Dube. It has a good stick handler and passer (Gaudreau) though I’d argue he’s a better area passer than a pinpoint guy and he doesn’t use his edge work like he used to. And it has a couple guys who create havoc, use their body, and have decent enough hands for all that (Lucic, Tkachuk). That can add to goals.

But what they aren’t, IMO is a highly creative team that dazzles with pretty plays on a consistent basis. Those elements can result in one, but I think they are most successful with direct, go to the net, cycle the puck, get a good shot hockey.

Looks like too many one dimensional players to me.

[rooster]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Steinberg on fire right now. Well at least as much as I have been heard him. Pretty pointed criticism of Tkachuk, Monahan, Gio, the coach and Treliving. Others too.

IMO it begins and ends with the guy that is responsible for building this team. If the Hamonic and Lazar moves didn’t throw up gigantic red flags for you then time to check your prescription.

Yeah the Markstrom signing was great. Couldn't imagine a more obvious move.

About time Steinberg stopped kissing their a$$e$

[rooster]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Absolutely, so slow through the neutral zone. Often because the other team has set up and they don’t like what they see, which further slows them down

How many times have you seen this? A winger like Tkachuk is stationed at the far blue line for the long pass chip. One of these things happens
- Stretch pass to him, he is covered and chips it in, then they have to chase, but he’s the guy chipping it in to his own corner and standing still, so Calgary is beat to the puck and it is cleared easily.
- He keeps the puck, is closed on and turns it over
- They skate it up to him with no weak side option and the other team closes on them to force a turnover

Flames need to use the whole ice better

Isn't that the system the coaches are using??

[Johnhitbox]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Steinberg on fire right now. Well at least as much as I have been heard him. Pretty pointed criticism of Tkachuk, Monahan, Gio, the coach and Treliving. Others too.

IMO it begins and ends with the guy that is responsible for building this team. If the Hamonic and Lazar moves didn’t throw up gigantic red flags for you then time to check your prescription.

Yeah the Markstrom signing was great. Couldn't imagine a more obvious move.

I'm pissed that I missed his show today. Would have loved to have heard that.

So, if the flames win tonight, 90% of the fans will forget everything and pretend like we're the best again. We need to stop celebrating the mediocrity of this franchise and start demanding better.



Sent from my SM-N986W using Tapatalk

[rooster]

Originally Posted by MillerTime GFG

RE: Rhett's (brilliant) rant on the Fan yesterday...

Do you think the Flames heard it, or heard about it? Maybe they don't care either way, but I just wonder if they know how much the City is talking about it. I know players often say they stay off of social media, don't listen to the media, etc., but I wonder. I feel like if I were an NHLer I'd want to tune into the Fan to see what the people think about me! But that's just me...

I think they have heard it. Pretty sure Tre said ho&^%$it and bull*&t on the radio today!!

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Johnhitbox

I'm pissed that I missed his show today. Would have loved to have heard that.

So, if the flames win tonight, 90% of the fans will forget everything and pretend like we're the best again. We need to stop celebrating the mediocrity of this franchise and start demanding better.



Sent from my SM-N986W using Tapatalk

We're just not as smart as you are, I guess.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Johnhitbox

I'm pissed that I missed his show today. Would have loved to have heard that.

So, if the flames win tonight, 90% of the fans will forget everything and pretend like we're the best again.

Based on what? This place has been pretty negative this season regardless of if they win.

[Harry Lime]

Interesting throw away remark during the intermission. After the stick toss in the Oilers game last year, leadership (in the Flames team) told Rittich to tone it down, that it wasn't good sportsmanship.

After that Rittich's game slid.

It might be nothing, but the most exuberant members of the team seem to be repressed if they are too passionate.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

If we are comparing to the Leafs forwards let's consider they have
- Austin Matthews: Franchise forward drafted #1 overall
- Mitch Marner: Franchise forward drafted #4 overall
- John Tavares: Franchise forward that chose to sign in his home town

Says a couple things
- Highlights why Sam not working out has been so damaging to the re-build
- Add Matthews and Tavares to the Flames, who were acquired via means not available to Calgary - and things look pretty damn good.

Do you think that the Leafs' GM has performed better than the Flames' GM? Or did they simply have more favorable circumstances.

I think Jordan Kyrou and Noah Dobson would have helped us out over the next 5-10 years. I can't really remember the Leafs GM making trades like that when he had a bubble team.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Interesting throw away remark during the intermission. After the stick toss in the Oilers game last year, leadership (in the Flames team) told Rittich to tone it down, that it wasn't good sportsmanship.

After that Rittich's game slid.

It might be nothing, but the most exuberant members of the team seem to be repressed if they are too passionate.

This team seems more interested in mending the hurt feelings of the other teams than its own success.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

I think Jordan Kyrou and Noah Dobson would have helped us out over the next 5-10 years. I can't really remember the Leafs GM making trades like that when he had a bubble team.

Like trading a first for Jake Muzzin?

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Like trading a first for Jake Muzzin?

I guess if you think that trading a first for Stanley Cup Champion, 3 time 40 point defenceman and defensive stalwart who was a lifetime +24 at the time of the trade is the same as trading a first and a second for a guy who had made it out of the first round once, had one season where he had more than 26 points and was a lifetime minus 7 then you do you.

If you also think that a team trading for the aforementioned Stanley Cup Champion in a season where they finish 7th in the NHL in the regular season is the same as a team giving up a 1st and a 2nd after they squeaked into the playoffs (17 teams has the same or more points than the Flames that season) then you do you.

The Muzzin comparison is kinda sad because Muzzin throughout his entire career has been a demonstrably better defenceman than Hamonic ever has been.

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Interesting throw away remark during the intermission. After the stick toss in the Oilers game last year, leadership (in the Flames team) told Rittich to tone it down, that it wasn't good sportsmanship.

After that Rittich's game slid.

It might be nothing, but the most exuberant members of the team seem to be repressed if they are too passionate.

At least it goes together well with the library environment of the Saddledome on most nights when fans are allowed.

[Pipty]

The problem is their definition of success is to squeak in and maybe have a miracle playoff run ala 2004. So they rush and waste cap space on Ufa where the chance of signing a good one is like 1/5. Lose trades like Lazar, Hamonic, Phaneuf. Unfortunately, successful teams have to identify when to mail it in for the next few years. If Oilers didn't rush with their ####ty signings like Lucic and stupid trades like Reinhart, Hall, AA. They would have a real good chance to win.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

I guess if you think that trading a first for Stanley Cup Champion, 3 time 40 point defenceman and defensive stalwart who was a lifetime +24 at the time of the trade is the same as trading a first and a second for a guy who had made it out of the first round once, had one season where he had more than 26 points and was a lifetime minus 7 then you do you.

If you also think that a team trading for the aforementioned Stanley Cup Champion in a season where they finish 7th in the NHL in the regular season is the same as a team giving up a 1st and a 2nd after they squeaked into the playoffs (17 teams has the same or more points than the Flames that season) then you do you.

The Muzzin comparison is kinda sad because Muzzin throughout his entire career has been a demonstrably better defenceman than Hamonic ever has been.

I guess you are free to set the criteria in a manner that favours your position

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I guess you are free to set the criteria in a manner that favours your position

Don't worry Jiri, Brad will be around for a longtime.

Do you think Muzzin was a better dman than Hamonic at the time of the trades?

Which team do you think was closer to winning a cup at the time of the trade?

Sadly for Flames fans, and it is an indictment you can write over and over again for Brad, the answer to question one is Muzzin was at the time undoubtedly a better dman than Hamonic and the objective answer to question two is a top 8 team is definitely closer to the Stanley Cup than a bubble team.

Usually Brad fans never put in any actual work to defend what he has done, but I am quite confident one would not be able to find a bubble team that blew as many draft picks to patch holes in their lineup as the Flames did between 16-18. A very unique approach to building a champion.

[Jiri Hrdina]

And yet they have won zero rounds with him
I think it’s a valid example as they are similar type of dmen
Harmonic was highly regarded when acquired but his play didn’t match that reputation I will agree
I just think your comparison to the leafs, and others, are clearly engineered for your purpose
The reason the Leafs have a better team isn’t because of good gm work. It’s because they drafted franchise players with high picks and had another franchise player sign with them over anyone else. That’s it.

Same with your roster turnover point which was equally flawed in approach.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

I think Jordan Kyrou and Noah Dobson would have helped us out over the next 5-10 years. I can't really remember the Leafs GM making trades like that when he had a bubble team.

Just for fun because you brought up Kyrou. Here are three 22 year old players (all 1998 birth years):

Player A:
17-18: 112 points in 71 games (WHL)
18-19: 38 points in 65 games (AHL)
19-20: 33 points in 38 games (AHL)

Player B:
17-18: 109 points in 56 games (OHL)
18-19: 43 points in 47 games (AHL)
19-20: 15 points in 16 games (AHL)

Player C:
17-18: 64 points in 40 games (WHL)
18-19: 18 points in 27 games (AHL)
19-20: 16 points in 23 games (AHL)

Player A is Matthew Phillips, Player B is Kyrou, Player C is Yamamoto.

Kyrou and Yamamoto are helping their teams in top 6 roles, yet Phillips can’t even get a game in the NHL on the Flames roster, while guys like Simon, Nordstrom, Ritchie, Robinson, etc all get multiple looks of doing nothing.

On a team that desperately needs a top 6 RW why not give Phillips a shot? Sure he’s small but you don’t know if he can adapt until he gets a shot. The skill is clearly there, and his size hasn’t hurt him at the AHL level.

Once again it’s the coach and GM just being afraid to give a young guy a shot because it might lead to a mistake.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Just for fun because you brought up Kyrou. Here are three 22 year old players (all 1998 birth years):

Player A:
17-18: 112 points in 71 games (WHL)
18-19: 38 points in 65 games (AHL)
19-20: 33 points in 38 games (AHL)

Player B:
17-18: 109 points in 56 games (OHL)
18-19: 43 points in 47 games (AHL)
19-20: 15 points in 16 games (AHL)

Player C:
17-18: 64 points in 40 games (WHL)
18-19: 18 points in 27 games (AHL)
19-20: 16 points in 23 games (AHL)

Player A is Matthew Phillips, Player B is Kyrou, Player C is Yamamoto.

Kyrou and Yamamoto are helping their teams in top 6 roles, yet Phillips can’t even get a game in the NHL on the Flames roster, while guys like Simon, Nordstrom, Ritchie, Robinson, etc all get multiple looks of doing nothing.

On a team that desperately needs a top 6 RW why not give Phillips a shot? Sure he’s small but you don’t know if he can adapt until he gets a shot. The skill is clearly there, and his size hasn’t hurt him at the AHL level.

Once again it’s the coach and GM just being afraid to give a young guy a shot because it might lead to a mistake.

The thing that bugs me too is that there isn't any big mean teams in the North right now either. Every game almost looks like a no contact league so it's not like he is going to get clobbered or be a liability because he can't hit.

[GioforPM]

TBF, Yamamoto is a first rounder from the same draft as Valimaki, who I’d say is getting a pretty good look. Dillon Dube - drafted 2016, is a full time NHLer. Rasmus got into the lineup pretty quickly. Mangiapane got in part time in his 2nd pro year and Janko only spent only 1 full season in the minors. Kylington played, Mackey is getting some time. Monahan, Tkachuk and Gaudreau came right in.



It’s not like the Flames never give shots to kids.