This team was playing with pace in 18-19 for sure and did under Hartley too.
Don't need to be the fastest skaters if you are moving the puck quick, and that's what the team is not doing at all right now.
Very slow passes, lots of circling back and taking too much time to make a read or a play.
Thanks for the link to the video breakdown. The pace with which Toronto attacked, after viewing all of the Flames’ examples from last game was a stark contrast.
They were flat as a pancake last game to begin with and with the weak side D unable to give an option, going 4 on 5 is not a recipe for success. I’m expecting / hoping for adjustments.
Imagine the posters here if the Flames don’t like the strong side they are being funneled in to and drop to the weak side D, though. The sky would be falling because it would remind them of their PP zone entries
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A lot of teams that turn the puck up ice quickly do it off of great defensive work leading to a high defensive zone turnover. Boston, for example. Bergeron, Pasternak and Marchand get a turnover and off they go. Calgary’s offensive forays tend to start slower because they are not generated from turnovers. The opposition play is over, the defence gathers the puck, and they start out. But the other side is set. It’s not really from some strategy to bring the puck back - it’s from how the play started. The Flames don’t have a lot of great two way players.
On paper doesn't matter.
Why do you believe that it's superior.
When I look at Montreal they have a great goalie.
Their blueline is adequate bolstered by Shea Weber. Jeff Petry is criminally under-rated. But I would give the edge to the Flames.
But I'll tell you I like the make-up of their forward group more. I think they have a more balanced mix of skill, jam/grit, scoring and playmakers. And I think they have more two-way players. And better depth.
You are making an statement that the Flames roster is better and therefore it's coaching.
What if we start to realize that maybe the roster isn't as good as we once thought?
The roster is pretty good still, and I think it's better than Montreal if you compare player to player.
The Flames goalie is just as good as Carey Price on current form. Seems crazy saying that, but that's a fact right now, Markstrom has been playing at an elite level.
I'm taking the Flames d-core there every day of the week. I have a feeling Julien would have tried to see if they could do something else right now because Gio/Andersson just hasn't worked this year.
Center:
Lindholm, Monahan, Backlund, Ryan (Froese)
vs
Suzuki, Danault, Kotkanemi, Evans
Suzuki has been great, and Danault is similar to Backlund, but top to bottom I'm taking the Flames Centers, especially with how good Lindholm has looked in that role this year.
vs
Drouin, Toffoli, Anderson, Gallagher, Lehkonen, Armia, Byron, Perry
I'd say Flames have the better top end wingers in Gaudreau and Tkachuk, but Montreal has the much deeper group on wing and actually has some natural RWs.
So IMO the Flames have the edge at center and on defense. The teams are pretty equal in goal (I'd actually say Markstrom > Price based on current form), and Montreal has the edge at Wing (especially the depth).
No doubt in my mind that you flip the coaches and Julien is coaching here and Ward in Montreal that the Flames are easily ahead of Montreal in the standings. They players still need to perform on the ice, but there is more than enough evidence that in the last 18 months the coaches have not put the players in a position to succeed either and are playing a flawed system.
I said it on the previous page but this "Core" that had been in the top 5/10 of the main advanced metrics for the previous 4 seasons (Corsi For, HDCR, xGF), and who actually might have a better roster than they did those seasons, is suddenly in the middle of the pack by those metrics since the start of last year. The team is being coached to play this safe and boring style of play, and it just doesn't fit the composition of this roster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GioforPM
A lot of teams that turn the puck up ice quickly do it off of great defensive work leading to a high defensive zone turnover. Boston, for example. Bergeron, Pasternak and Marchand get a turnover and off they go. Calgary’s offensive forays tend to start slower because they are not generated from turnovers. The opposition play is over, the defence gathers the puck, and they start out. But the other side is set. It’s not really from some strategy to bring the puck back - it’s from how the play started. The Flames don’t have a lot of great two way players.
This is defensive zone and transitions systems rearing their ugly heads too though.
Ward for much of his time as head coach has the team playing a very passive collapse in the defensive zone. They don't try to press for turnovers, they collapse in front of the net, keep everything to the outside and then try to get possession off a missed or blocked shot. Same thing on Zone Entries we were the third worst team in the league last year at allowing zone entries, because our defense is being told to back up and give up our blueline, instead of stepping up to try to create a turnover at our blueline.
Watch tonight to see how often one of our forwards is actually up at the blueline trying to force their dman into a turnover, that's where most odd-man rushes come from, and it just doesn't happen anymore. Forwards collapse too low and can't get out to the point to put pressure on the opposing d-man. Then the d-man has all the time and space in the world to make a play as the Flames forward just hopes to get in the shooting lane.
It was infurating against Dallas as the forwards just collapsed giving the Stars d-men all the time and space in the world to make a play. They made Heiskanen look like Bobby Orr.
In order to be able to generate a turnover you actually need to play aggressive to try and force the team into making a turnover, and this coaching staff does not encourage this team to do that at all. Safe, low risk, boring hockey.
You can see this in the stats for where we allow shots from:
18-19: More aggressive defense, very few point shots against.
19-20: Collapse in front of the net, but still not as much from the points, gave up way too much from the circles.
20-21: Just wide open point man every game so far with nothing from right in front which is where we are collapsing. Doing a better job at protecting the circles.
Because of this it means we are giving up much lower xG because there isn't much from the really high danger areas, but it means we are playing really passive on the points and not generating turnovers. That giant red right between the circles will catch up to us eventually too, my guess is that's a lot of tips, deflections, and plays where the other team gets a rebound on a blocked shot.
Last edited by SuperMatt18; 02-15-2021 at 01:35 PM.
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Ward for much of his time as head coach has the team playing a very passive collapse in the defensive zone. They don't try to press for turnovers, they collapse in front of the net, keep everything to the outside and then try to get possession off a missed or blocked shot. Same thing on Zone Entries we were the third worst team in the league last year at allowing zone entries, because our defense is being told to back up and give up our blueline, instead of stepping up to try to create a turnover at our blueline.
This is the part of the game that I affectionately refer to as “screaming at the TV in futility for someone to pressure the puck carrier”. When you see the team getting stuffed by the opponent repeating the same strategy over and over, that’s not an effort or IQ problem. They’ve gotten these patterns drilled into them, and the indifference about having to play this way is really settling in.
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I personally think Price is one of the most over rated goaltenders in recent memory. Right now he is at .901 for reference Markstrom is .925.
Yeah he hasn't been elite for 2-3 seasons now...whenever I say that though it turns into an argument so figured I'd go with equal even though as of right now Markstrom is better.
Last edited by SuperMatt18; 02-15-2021 at 02:02 PM.
Was curious so decided to watch some videos from 18-19 season this year to see if I can notice something in our defensive systems and it's obvious that this team is playing much slower and way more passive than they were in that season.
Personally I don't think these players just forgot to play a way that seems way more enjoyable to play, this has to be coaching and systems related.
In the first minute of the Hanifin video you see him step up to try and prevent a zone entry, and then he activates in the breakout moving his feet to help with the zone exit and zone entry. That is nowhere to be see with this team right now. The defense stepping up at our own blueline is the one that's crazy to me, you see them using it effectively a lot in this video, where as last year we were the 3rd worst team in the league at preventing zone entries. No doubt in my mind this is systemic.
Overall our defensive zone coverage is way more passive too. You don't see nearly as deep a collapse in our own zone in these videos.
You see the same theme in the Giordano video as well. More aggressive trying to hold our own blueline, d-men activing into the breakout and rush much more frequently, and our forwards playing way more aggressive on the other team's d-men in the defensive zone.
No chance our dmen attempt to make they play they made at 7:55 at our own blueline and step up at the line like they tried to do on Mackinnon there with the system we are playing now.
One day when I have some time I'm going to do a full breakdown of our systems prior to the 18/19 all-star break, and our systems since. I have no doubt in my mind that we changed our system to be way more passive, and defensive in the last year.
The advanced metrics show it, the eye test shows it, seems crazy to me that nobody in the media in this city has asked the coaching staff or team about how our systems look completley different in the last year compared to the year we finished second in the league.
Last edited by SuperMatt18; 02-15-2021 at 02:12 PM.
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No offense but using a highlight package to make any assessment doesn't work. You are literally looking at them at their best.
It can be helpful to see general tendencies in how people are playing though.
The d-men don't even attempt to make those step ups at the defensive blue line anymore.
The forwards are way lower in the defensive zone.
The d-men don't even try to activate and help out on the break in and carry the puck up the ice like they used to.
Of course the highlights are going to make them look good, but that's not what I was looking at. I was looking for the general system and structure that was evident in the videos.
I've been watching the condensed games from that 18-19 season and you see a lot of the same trends, just stands out more in the highlights for quick viewing.
On the negative side you also see a lot of scenarios where the team lets in a forward behind them because they are playing really aggressively. But I'd rather they play aggressive and make mistakes like that where it's becasue they are trying to make a play instead of what we see now where it's just constant pressure in our own zone and we don't even attempt to make a play.
Also it's a shame Kylington hasn't gotten a game in a while, his skating is really noticeable in a lot of these condensed games early in the 18-19 season.
Last edited by SuperMatt18; 02-15-2021 at 02:50 PM.
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It can be helpful to see general tendencies in how people are playing though.
The d-men don't even attempt to make those step ups at the defensive blue line anymore.
The forwards are way lower in the defensive zone.
The d-men don't even try to activate and help out on the break in and carry the puck up the ice like they used to.
Of course the highlights are going to make them look good, but that's not what I was looking at. I was looking for the general system and structure that was evident in the videos.
If you look at a highlight package so far this year their breakout is gonna look pretty darn good, I’d wager.
I don't claim to have any insider knowledge, so this is just wild speculation, but I get the feeling that there is a rift in the dressing room. This was only reinforced by the team already having a players only meeting. Not to mention, already one public trade demand.
It seems like when effort and chemistry fall off a cliff, there is often division among the ranks.
If I had to guess, I think there are those that are all business and are getting a little peeved that the country club crowd is wasting their time.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
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I’ve come to realize what I expect will be a very unpopular opinion.
I believe many posters look at Ward as being their real life boss. They take out their multiple frustrations out on him , with very little idea of what he actually does and what his job envelopes.
Additionally, they don’t comprehend or respect that unlike most bosses , he is paid much much less than the people he is accountable for...
He is not playing Minecraft!
He motivates, he teaches, he has in-depth conversations with ideas that he believes will enlighten and better each player’s game. If they concede , acquiesce and play the way that he sincerely believes will lead to team success, all is good, in a lot of cases.
If not , he has to find other ways.
Unlike your situation , he cannot fire you if you refuse to follow instruction and be a productive team player.
Unlike almost any other industry, the players, almost exclusively, decide whether coaches or management succeed.
I’ll go back to the Pittsburgh Steelers .....since 1970, the most successful NFL franchise.
Their current 3rd Head Coach in 50 years is very secure. The players are as accountable as he is..and they know ownership is committed to their coach and players.
Why?
The players are the performers. Their decisions and actions decide victories and defeats, the vast majority of the time.
Last edited by timbit; 02-16-2021 at 12:01 AM.
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The players have to perform but the coach has to put them in the best position to succeed, and I don’t think Ward has done that.
If the Flames had a coach with proven success like the Pittsburgh Steelers had then I’d agree with you but they don’t.
Again tonight there is some stuff I don’t love but wasnt going to come bitch here, actually gave him some credit in the PGT on how successful Lindholm has been at Center.
But since you asked here it goes:
Throwing out weird lines late in the game. Empty net, 5v5, and he put out Mangiapane-Monahan-Lindholm. Mangiapane and Lindholm (who’s hasn’t played wing this year) get crossed up in point man coverage and boom goal against. Just stick with your normal lines in that scenario and stop trying to overcoach it. Still on the players to not make a mistake but maybe don’t have them trying to be thinking about what their role is on a new line.
The defensive structure. Still too passive and still collapsing too much down low although I think they were actually a little less passive than the last couple games so I’ll give him some credit if that was an adjustment. But the big one to me is still defending their own blueline and dmen jumping into the rush.
In the first period passive and dmen not playing aggressive. Go down 2-0 and looks like dmen are given green light to pinch and suddenly they are activating a lot more and closing gaps at our own blueline, jumping up into the play like Andersson did to set up both goals.
Go up 3-2 and defense is back to playing ultra passive (which I do get when protecting a lead but they go a little too far with it and invite too much pressure).
Let the dmen be more aggressive from the first whistle, we have a strong skating mobile d-core. Let them use it.
The forth line...stop dressing Nordstrom-Forese-Whoever if you aren’t going to trust them at 5v5 and only play then for under 5 minutes a night. Use Gawdin and others if that’s the case and you don’t trust these guys.
Oh and on that note these guys don’t play all night and then you throw Froese out with under 5 minutes left because you wanted two centres on the ice for the face off.
And really he doesn’t get any credit for taking until game 15 to try Lucic-Bennett-Dube out again, he was only really forced into it due to Backlunds injury.
So yeah still lots of stuff to nitpick tonight and that’s just off the top of my head.
One thing I’ll say that it looks like they did adjust and I’ll give him some credit on is our zone entires. Feel like they tried to carry the puck in a lot more tonight and a lot more passes across the blueline too. When they did dump it was smarter dumps as well instead of weak dumps into spots with no support.
Overall still not great but do think he did at least try to make some adjustments to the strategy tonight and some things worked.
Last edited by SuperMatt18; 02-16-2021 at 12:33 AM.
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The players have to perform but the coach has to put them in the best position to succeed, and I don’t think Ward has done that.
If the Flames had a coach with proven success like the Pittsburgh Steelers had then I’d agree with you but they don’t.
Again tonight there is some stuff I don’t love but wasnt going to come bitch here, actually gave him some credit in the PGT on how successful Lindholm has been at Center.
But since you asked here it goes:
Throwing out weird lines late in the game. Empty net, 5v5, and he put out Mangiapane-Monahan-Lindholm. Mangiapane and Lindholm (who’s hasn’t played wing this year) get crossed up in point man coverage and boom goal against. Just stick with your normal lines in that scenario and stop trying to overcoach it. Still on the players to not make a mistake but maybe don’t have them trying to be thinking about what their role is on a new line.
The defensive structure. Still too passive and still collapsing too much down low although I think they were actually a little less passive than the last couple games so I’ll give him some credit if that was an adjustment. But the big one to me is still defending their own blueline and dmen jumping into the rush.
In the first period passive and dmen not playing aggressive. Go down 2-0 and looks like dmen are given green light to pinch and suddenly they are activating a lot more and closing gaps at our own blueline, jumping up into the play like Andersson did to set up both goals.
Go up 3-2 and defense is back to playing ultra passive (which I do get when protecting a lead but they go a little too far with it and invite too much pressure).
Let the dmen be more aggressive from the first whistle, we have a strong skating mobile d-core. Let them use it.
The forth line...stop dressing Nordstrom-Forese-Whoever if you aren’t going to trust them at 5v5 and only play then for under 5 minutes a night. Use Gawdin and others if that’s the case and you don’t trust these guys.
Oh and on that note these guys don’t play all night and then you throw Froese out with under 5 minutes left because you wanted two centres on the ice for the face off.
And really he doesn’t get any credit for taking until game 15 to try Lucic-Bennett-Dube out again, he was only really forced into it due to Backlunds injury.
So yeah still lots of stuff to nitpick tonight and that’s just off the top of my head.
One thing I’ll say that it looks like they did adjust and I’ll give him some credit on is our zone entires. Feel like they tried to carry the puck in a lot more tonight and a lot more passes across the blueline too. When they did dump it was smarter dumps as well instead of weak dumps into spots with no support.
Overall still not great but do think he did at least try to make some adjustments to the strategy tonight and some things worked.
Totally agreed. I’ll comment on this.
Late PP is ES once the Canucks go EN. M
You are up by a goal. Treat it as an otherwise normal 5v5 defensive situation. Don’t get weird. I want to give the coaches the benefit of the doubt but that was unnecessary overcoaching
Late PP is ES once the Canucks go EN. M
You are up by a goal. Treat it as an otherwise normal 5v5 defensive situation. Don’t get weird. I want to give the coaches the benefit of the doubt but that was unnecessary overcoaching
Simple question.
How would you know?
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