The Deal With Geoff Ward

[Lanny_McDonald]

Frankly, I see the Calgary Flames as an under performing company. They have all the pieces to be a big earner and turn some big profits. The problem is they are mismanaged. They have really poor middle management (coaches) and upper management that can't make a decision to alter course when it becomes evidently clear that change is needed. These are usually times when wise investors would sweep in, clean house, and put in place a seasoned management team to push the company over the top.

I'm shocked that Murray Edwards has not approached the team this way. This is how he made so much money. He recognized good companies with assets that were underperforming, snapped them up and put in place experienced managers to turn them around. What the hell is he missing here?

It is obvious this team has some really good pieces. It is obvious they can perform when allowed to play an up tempo attack oriented game. They have added important pieces to the mix that improved the depth since that last time they actually played to the team's strengths. This should be a very good team, but the comically bad management team is holding this group back. Treliving needs to replace the coach immediately or be replaced himself and then a new coaching staff put into play.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

This.

There wasn't even certainty that there would be a season at all at the time the Flames (and other teams) were looking at coaches.

I also have my doubts about the "proven" coaches that were left standing for the Flames to pick from.

Boudreau has had some success, but has had health issues. Being a player's coach for this team would kill him probably.

Gallant, there has to be some reason why he gets canned in such unceremonious ways.

Laviolette was probably never going to choose Calgary, plus I don't think we want a coach that punches players in the head on the bench when he gets frustrated. If the country club hated Hartley, they weren't going to play for Laviolette either.

If you are paying $3 million+ for a coach, you need to be sure that it is indeed the missing piece. Until this team gets rid of the coach killing players, I don't think it matters who the coach is.

The team probably needs to get rid of the coach killing GM who acquires the coach killing players first.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Psytic

Maybe but he was a motivator and had that team believing they could come back and beat anyone. There is no "Find A Way Flames or Cardiac Kids/ Vets or that type of swagger any more. Under Ward they come out flat like they had a flat of beer the day before the game, show up for a period or maybe two if we are lucky, and skate around like their feet are in mud every second game. The last game it looked like a team that smokes a pack a day versus Olympic Athletes with how slow they were on pucks and getting up the ice. They get bailed out by Markstrom and win games they have no business winning and are less than the sum of their parts when in the past they played way way above their heads and looked like the best conditioned team on the ice. There's things beyond X and Os I really really liked about Sutter and Hartley coached teams that Ward could learn.

Like I said, his rep here is based on one of his 4 seasons. The Flames never did that in his first 2 seasons, nor his last. Apologists argue it was because of the rebuild, but he started with a veteran team with skill - Iginla, Tanguay, Cammi, Glencross, Stempniak, Hudler, Gio, Backlund, Brodie, were all on that team, and they didn’t do it. The next year he had same guys except Iginla, and he’d added Monahan. He had Cammi in a contract year and he was pretty unmotivated. And they went nowhere, and were simply a bad team.

The 2015 success was down to luck, and a chance connection between Monahan, the new and exciting Gaudreau and Hudler (who had a career year), Wideman also having a career year due to his chemistry with Gaudreau.

I don’t think that year was due to Hartley motivating anyone. It was them self-motivating because they were excited to play with each other.

[SuperMatt18]

14/15 was about youth and the energy young guys brought to the lineup.

This team could use some youth for sure. Youth tends to bring the energy and Flames bottom 6 is all 28+ outside of Mangiapane.

If Backlund is out maybe give Zary a game two of his 9 games.

Call up Gawdin, Phillips, or Ruzicka.

This team went and grabbed a bunch of veterans in Leivo, Simon, and Nordstrom and left no room for a young guy to grab a spot.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Like I said, his rep here is based on one of his 4 seasons. The Flames never did that in his first 2 seasons, nor his last.

I thought the 2015-16 Flames had their share of exciting comebacks, at least leading up to the trade deadline before the Hudler selloff.

The biggest issue with that team was goaltending, not how they played on the ice. And yes, that doesn't mean I thought stretch passes every time were the best idea, but it was still more effective than literally passing to the other team's defenseman on the wall every shift as we've done under Ward.

The Flames also played pretty exciting hockey in the second half of the 2013-14 season.

[Bingo]

I'm not a big Ward fan ... wasn't a huge Hartley fan either. I liked the Peters move but given what was going on he clearly had to go.

But I'm also not a fan of blaming coaches for everything.

Maybe the team doesn't play the right style offensively or defensively, but they lost that game on individuals flubbing, fanning, or just throwing the puck away blind more than they lost on systems.

Giordano's backhand into the slot that led to the winning goal was insane. Monahan's flub, and then Gaudreau trying to skate away from the flub and weakly backhanding it are execution.

Nobody is coaching skill players to half ass it, or abandon fundamentals like doubling back to the puck and not skating away from it.

There are plenty of flaws in the system, plenty of things to criticize, but when you lose games on players not getting themselves ready, and making stupid mistakes it's not coaching 100%.

This core has been broken for years. Still is.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'm not a big Ward fan ... wasn't a huge Hartley fan either. I liked the Peters move but given what was going on he clearly had to go.

But I'm also not a fan of blaming coaches for everything.

Maybe the team doesn't play the right style offensively or defensively, but they lost that game on individuals flubbing, fanning, or just throwing the puck away blind more than they lost on systems.

Giordano's backhand into the slot that led to the winning goal was insane. Monahan's flub, and then Gaudreau trying to skate away from the flub and weakly backhanding it are execution.

Nobody is coaching skill players to half ass it, or abandon fundamentals like doubling back to the puck and not skating away from it.

There are plenty of flaws in the system, plenty of things to criticize, but when you lose games on players not getting themselves ready, and making stupid mistakes it's not coaching 100%.

This core has been broken for years. Still is.

I'm still not convinced the core is broken until I see a quality coach fail with this group. For 5 years now, we're just opining.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think Hartley was a terrible coach and his rep here is based off of one season. But I could be wrong and I’d like to hear what Iginla, Stajan, Jaybo, Russell - vets who played elsewhere - have to say.

But it wasn't just the one season.


The year of the rebuild, the Flames started playing well from the halfway point of the season, and even though the losses piled up, they rarely did poorly. How many standing ovations did that team receive at the Saddledome even after a loss?


Then there was the year you acknowledge about the 'one season' - playoffs.


The year after, I will also argue that they played fairly well when they got decent goaltending as well. They started terribly with the 3-headed goalie monster that couldn't save an easy shot, but once Ramo was sent down and came back up, he provided the Flames with steady goaltending, and again the Flames were playing exceptionally well most nights and were looking like they were pushing to make the playoffs again. Then Ramo got injured, and everything went to hell again.


I am not advocating that Hartley should return - or even that he shouldn't have been fired. If he was 'over the line' with his antics, then it was a good move by Treliving. However, I think he has been the only coach since Darryl to come in here and get a Flames' team to perform above expectations - and do it consistently. That system he implemented was simply the best system that they could play. They were not a good team, and I don't think that they had the talent to play a puck-possession system. Based on the fact that he has won championships in every league he has coached in - including a cup (and not every coach in Colorado was able to win a cup with that amazing team), I would say he is a good coach, and I really wonder what changes he would have done over the years with a better team like we see.


Treliving's mistake was not firing Hartley, it was hiring Gulutzan... and then Peters... and thus far possibly Ward as well. Just like Darryl messed things up by stepping down and hiring Playfair, then Keenan, then Brent Sutter.


What makes a coach good or bad?


For me it is simple:


Bad coaches fail to meet expectations. Give them a good team, and they will have a disappointing season.


Good coaches exceed expectations, period, and Hartley did that.



Calgary needs a good coach. The only one that I am sure (as sure as I can be anyway) that is a proven 'good coach' and is available is Darryl Sutter. Yeah, Boudreau has that sparkling winning record and a bunch of speeches on youtube that you can see, but he has never once had an NHL team under him exceed expectations. Gallant has seen his teams exceed expectations, but is he another Hartley who too quickly wears out his welcome? I don't know, but he seems to get fired quickly and unceremoniously.



I don't know who else would be good. I am sure there are some actual really good 'up and comers' out there as well who can come in and do a great job in Calgary, but I am hesitant on that. Calgary has seen probably more than their fair share of 'up and comers' ever since Don Hay, and they never panned-out for them. Can they find the next Badger Bob? I am sure there is a coach in the NCAA, Juniors or even Europe that is ready to step into the NHL and do well, but there have been so many disappointments.


I really believe that after the relative instability of Gulutzan-Peters-Ward, this team absolutely needs an experienced coach to right the ship, much like they needed that stability in management when Burke was brought-in to right the ship.

[GioforPM]

As I’ve said, I have no thoughts Ward is a great coach. But it’s hard to say it was a bad idea to re-up him given he salvaged the season last year, won the play-in and should have won the first round but for a defence and goaltending let down (which some blame on him). And he could have turned out fine based on his winning record.

The thing is, a whole bunch of posters here, if they were fans of Tampa or Pittsburgh or Boston or St. Louis, would have complained when their coaches were hired, because those teams didn’t go for a top coach.

As it turns out I don’t think he’s great, or terrible. I have my doubts a different coach equals a whole lot more wins.

[GioforPM]

How many standing ovations did Hartley’s teams get after a loss in his 3/4 crappy seasons? Hardly any. This is just rewriting history. We understood the losses, but they weren’t moral victories at all. A lot were blowouts.

Playing well later in the first year of the rebuild? 7-13 in March, losing 4-1 and 8-2 to the Oilers and 5-2 and 4-1 to the Canucks? Unless I’m getting you wrong and you meant 13-14. There, they did improve, but they still weren’t playing good hockey.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Great article on how the Flames coaching staff and system in contributing to their failure

https://jmalloryhockey.substack.com/...used-cgy-needs

This post by SuperMatt needs more attention.


I have actually been thinking about this more and more, and it just seems a lot like "Brent Sutter" hockey. Overly safe, and completely predictable.



I remember teams cheating along the boards leaving the middle of the ice unprotected when facing Brent Sutter's Flames, but the Flames would continue throwing those pucks up the boards. They would get hemmed in their zone for what seemed like 5 minutes at a time.


It is the lack of adjustments that is really bothering me now. Green has figured out Calgary's system before their first game. I think Calgary won just based on having the superior team. The last game, Vancouver won with execution and effort - they countered Calgary's system better and out-worked Calgary to win the game (and did so seemingly embarrassing Calgary in the process).


What will the adjustments be tonight? Please don't be a Brent Sutter and come in without any adjustments to what the other team is doing. It isn't just about executing 'your system' - it is also about figuring out what to do to stop theirs.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

As I’ve said, I have no thoughts Ward is a great coach. But it’s hard to say it was a bad idea to re-up him given he salvaged the season last year, won the play-in and should have won the first round but for a defence and goaltending let down (which some blame on him). And he could have turned out fine based on his winning record.

The thing is, a whole bunch of posters here, if they were fans of Tampa or Pittsburgh or Boston or St. Louis, would have complained when their coaches were hired, because those teams didn’t go for a top coach.

As it turns out I don’t think he’s great, or terrible. I have my doubts a different coach equals a whole lot more wins.

If the team struggles to start, play a full 60 minutes or make adjustments almost every single game, no one cares if it's a rookie coach or the longest serving coach in NHL history.
We just want to see obvious efforts to correct those things.

Yes most people believe an experienced coach is most likely to correct those but we'd also be just as happy if a rookie coach showed up and showed they had that tool.

Fact is we don't have that coach, and that's what matters.

[Kovaz]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

This post by SuperMatt needs more attention.


I have actually been thinking about this more and more, and it just seems a lot like "Brent Sutter" hockey. Overly safe, and completely predictable.



I remember teams cheating along the boards leaving the middle of the ice unprotected when facing Brent Sutter's Flames, but the Flames would continue throwing those pucks up the boards. They would get hemmed in their zone for what seemed like 5 minutes at a time.


It is the lack of adjustments that is really bothering me now. Green has figured out Calgary's system before their first game. I think Calgary won just based on having the superior team. The last game, Vancouver won with execution and effort - they countered Calgary's system better and out-worked Calgary to win the game (and did so seemingly embarrassing Calgary in the process).


What will the adjustments be tonight? Please don't be a Brent Sutter and come in without any adjustments to what the other team is doing. It isn't just about executing 'your system' - it is also about figuring out what to do to stop theirs.

Yeah I think this is really at the core of it. Our system is too conservative, too focused on avoiding mistakes. We get too fixated on one turnover or one missed assignment. If you have to play 100% mistake-free hockey to beat a mediocre team 2-1, you're not going anywhere.


I'd be a huge fan of bringing in Gallant, because he absolutely gets that:

Originally Posted by Gerard Gallant

You got out there and if you worry about making mistakes, you’re not going to play a good game. I want you going out there and thinking you’re gonna make the good plays and do the right things on the ice. So don’t worry about your mistakes.

https://www.bardown.com/gerard-galla...akes-1.1091303


It's vital not to miss the forest for the trees. Using the middle of the ice will cost you some goals against on bad turnovers. Letting your wingers fly the zone early will hurt you sometimes. Activating your weak-side D creates 2-on-1s against sometimes. But if you get fixated on those things, how much value are you giving up on the 95% where your players execute to prevent the 5% where they screw up?

[Inglewood Jack]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Great article on how the Flames coaching staff and system in contributing to their failure

https://jmalloryhockey.substack.com/...used-cgy-needs

After reading that with all the video examples, I can’t imagine why someone would still pin it on bad/lazy players not executing. This system provides absolutely zero margin for error or alternate options when the opposition lines up a counter. This should be mandatory reading for everyone in the thread

To put it bluntly, the Flames shoot themselves in the foot every time they try to breakout. They look to employ a strictly north-south breakout, which leads to the following tactical pitfalls:

All 3 forwards cutting the ice in half for themselves, which eliminates any and all lateral optionality

The 3-forward clump results in turnovers or the necessity to jam pucks up the strong side via chips or dumps

No effective weak-side D activation to provide an outlet for forwards who receive pressure on the strong side or through the middle

‘Tunnel vision’ for the forwards, who, through no fault of their own, see no other options than to just cram the puck up the boards or dump it and chase

[EVERLAST]

The moment Geoff Ward was quoted as saying we're painting a barn not a Rembrandt I knew we were in trouble.

He can look at every ####ing iPad shoved in his face but he DOESN'T comprehend thr game well enough.

Thr whole goddamned league knows how to beat the Flames . Watch 1 game where the opposing team lights the tires on fire and Boom there you go.

We have confirmed bias examples up the arse as to how to beat this team, live rent free in our players heads and just make them quit on the spot.

Right now Tanev and Markstrom have to be asking WTF?!? And Mackey or Any other new flame watching this team .....taxi squad to prospect.

If Tkachuk is playing like shirt then it makes me wonder if he suddenly feels beaten down by Failed attempts to get everyone's GAF meters pegged to where they need to be.

Ward needs to go....get out your check books Flames owners....yeah it sucks not making money but this is no longer an acceptable option.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'm not a big Ward fan ... wasn't a huge Hartley fan either. I liked the Peters move but given what was going on he clearly had to go.

But I'm also not a fan of blaming coaches for everything.

Maybe the team doesn't play the right style offensively or defensively, but they lost that game on individuals flubbing, fanning, or just throwing the puck away blind more than they lost on systems.

Giordano's backhand into the slot that led to the winning goal was insane. Monahan's flub, and then Gaudreau trying to skate away from the flub and weakly backhanding it are execution.

Nobody is coaching skill players to half ass it, or abandon fundamentals like doubling back to the puck and not skating away from it.

There are plenty of flaws in the system, plenty of things to criticize, but when you lose games on players not getting themselves ready, and making stupid mistakes it's not coaching 100%.

This core has been broken for years. Still is.

Agree that this isn't all on the coaching staff. Honestly I still think Glen Gulutzan got too much blame for what was bad luck and bad goaltending.

What I would question though is that this core has been broken for years.

I'd say the team was "Broken" in the series against Colorado because the coaching staff and GM overreacted to what was a bad loss when a team just ran into a really hot team at the time.

Lets look back at the results season by seasson.

They played okay in 16-17 with a flawed roster and actually outplayed the Ducks in that playoff series and had a 52.2% expected goals for in that series, and the PP actually was good in that series too. The problem was Elliott just let in 7 low danger goals in 4 games, the 4th most Low Danger goals any team allowed in the entire playoffs, in 4 freaking games.

In 17-18 they actually played the best 200ft game as a team they probably have as a core. They were top 3 in Corsi For, 2nd in HDCF, and 5th in xGF, and that's with a less talented roster than we have today.
Problem in 17-18 was they didn't get a save, and couldn't buy a goal, finishing 29th in Shooting Percentage, and 22nd in save percentage at 5v5. being in the 20s in both of those stats means you're a lottery team.

IMO Gulutzan was getting much more out of a worse roster in his two seasons as head coach than Ward is getting with a better roster today, problem is if you're in the 20s in both of those stats that means you're a lottery team.

Then they brought in Peters in 18-19 and they looked elite for 3/4 of the season when the Shooting Percentage normalized and the team was playing with pace and confidence. They actually didn't rank as high in the advanced metrics: 5th in Corsi For, 10th in HDCF%> and 7th in xGF%.

But shooting percentage normalized going up to 9.1% shooting percentage, which ranked 4th in the league, goaltending was still a weakness though ranking 19th in save percentage.

Then something changed that season and I'm still not sure if it was at the all-star break or the offseason but the team shifted to trying to play "heavy hockey" and were clearly playing with less pace. IMO they overreacted to that loss to Colorado. They decided they couldn't play with pace and decided that they wanted to muck it up.

Instead of thinking "How do we play more like Colorado?, they said "How do we grind it out and slow down the play more?"

I shared the stats in this thread and the stats are clear that from 18-19 to 19-20 we took a huge step back in transition play, and pace, relying more on dump ins and played more passively at own blue line. This coaching staff has the team playing boring, passive, and safe hockey because they think that will let them be more successful in the playoffs because they overreacted after getting killed in transition by the Avs in a series where the coaching staff had no answer.

And because of that stylistic change this team's advanced metrics cratered last year. A team and core that had been in the top 5 of the league for 4 seasons in advanced metrics fell to middle of the pack.

In 19-20 they dropped to:

15th in Corsi For
11th in High Danger Corsi For
16th in xGF

23rd in Shooting Percentage
15th in Save Percentage

Now we have the same core of players that were a top 5 team by most advanced metrics for 3 seasons, that finally got some shooting percentage luck in 18-19, and we finally have a good goalie BUT the coach now has them playing a system that has them playing safe, passive, and scared to make a mistake and it all started as a result of that loss to the Canucks.

This isn't about one game against the Canucks - the players can wear the blame for that one because they just didn't show up. But the coaching staff and GM isn't helping them by forcing them to play a system that doesn't meet this teams strengths and by not making the neccessary adjustments game to game.

Honestly it's not a coincidence that this team looked great the first three games when they were playing a more open style with pace and the defense were jumping into the rush. Then the coaching staff had 5 days to reinforce the system and suddenly they are playing slow plodding hockey again.

I don't get why Treliving built a team that is a sports car and seems so inclined hook it up to a plow. Let these guys play with pace and open up the system again and I bet we see better results. Especially because you finally got the goalie! The team is 3rd in save percentage at 5v5 this year. Stop playing so damn passive and open it up a bit. If you make a mistake we have the goalie that will bail you out now, take some risks!

[GioforPM]

I wish the Flames played with more pace. The problem is not really coaching though. I don’t think the team is a sports car - it’s underpowered. Gaudreau is better on the cycle than on the rush - same with Tkachuk and Monahan. Arguably Lindholm too. Dube and Mangiapane have some speed. Backlund, Gaudreau and Lindholm aren’t slow, but they aren’t fast either. Bennett, Tkachuk and Monahan have skating issues. So to create speed they have to pass the puck, not skate it. And when their passing is off they look terrible. Last game I thought the ice was super slow - Johnny outskated pucks he thought were catching up to him, passes seemed to drag along the ice. This was to the Canuck’s benefit.

[TheSquatch]

I remember someone criticizing Brent Sutter for the style of play he implemented, and he shrugged and said "Well, if you don't have the horses..." and honestly I'm not sure if that's the case here now or not.

It feels like the team does/should have. Lindholm, Tkachuk, Mangiapane, Dube, Backlund, Johnny Hockey, Monahan... I mean, these are okay pieces, no?

But something's strange. Chucky looks slow and lost. Gio is maybe on the upturn but he hasn't been at NHL pace really very often this year. Monahan looks a year older and slower. Seen him make a few slick plays (that flip to Gaudreau was unbelievable touch) but getting somewhere first and winning a board battle? Nah.

That's why Lucic and Mangiapane stand out so much on this team. The fight in the corner like hell. Need more of it. Need more Lindholm effort and fire.

There's a chance... just a chance mind you, that Ward is a better hockey coach than each and every one of us. And that the team just isn't good enough to do much with, because a bunch of guys are comfy.

[SuperMatt18]

This team was playing with pace in 18-19 for sure and did under Hartley too.

Don't need to be the fastest skaters if you are moving the puck quick, and that's what the team is not doing at all right now.

Very slow passes, lots of circling back and taking too much time to make a read or a play.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by jg13

IMO our roster is superior on paper to Montreals by a fair margin yet they're further ahead in the standings.

This IMO is largely due to coaching. Julien has won a cup and is getting the most out of the roster provided infront of him so yes, IMO coaching plays a factor and I do believe we would do wonders better with a guy in charge of the bench that has been there, done that.

How management hasn't figured that out yet is mindboggling to me.

On paper doesn't matter.
Why do you believe that it's superior.
When I look at Montreal they have a great goalie.
Their blueline is adequate bolstered by Shea Weber. Jeff Petry is criminally under-rated. But I would give the edge to the Flames.

But I'll tell you I like the make-up of their forward group more. I think they have a more balanced mix of skill, jam/grit, scoring and playmakers. And I think they have more two-way players. And better depth.

You are making an statement that the Flames roster is better and therefore it's coaching.

What if we start to realize that maybe the roster isn't as good as we once thought?