[PGT] Flames lay an egg

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

And goaltending is the biggest reason that Ward has had some success as a coach. Easily has received the best goaltending of any of the Flames last 4 head coaches.

Hartley: .901 (29th)
Gulutzan: .906 (23rd)
Peters: .903 (20th)
Ward: .909 (11th and climbing)

So Ward is getting pretty much the same overall outcomes, with much better goaltending, that speaks to me that the team has taken a step back in other areas under him.

I'm pretty sure Gulutzan would have had more success with an elite Markstrom over Brian Elliott. The team has pretty well morphed into last season's Canucks getting outplayed and bailed out by their goaltender. It's not a recipe for success.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I wouldn't say he was an unknown. His first season as Bruins head coach he led them to 104 points. The reality is that coaches need to be the right fit for the team not the other way around and I don't consider it an issue firing coaches until you find the right guy. I would rather have 3 coached in 5 years it if meant the 3rd guy took the team to the next level over 5 years of mediocrity under one coach.

He hadn’t been a HC for like 10 years, after being one for two seasons. You forgot to mention that second Bruins season where he managed to get 29 wins and 74 points.

[Red]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

He got Hamilton, Lindholm, Hanifin, Tanev, and Markstrom. He’s gotten as many big names as any other GM IMO.

He has turned over the D, for sure. With questionable results. But hard to fault him for Hamilton's so so time here.
But he hasn't improved the team's forward group.
The team has needed that big forward to take pressure off JG and Monahan. And he knew that and talked about it.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

He hadn’t been a HC for like 10 years, after being one for two seasons. You forgot to mention that second Bruins season where he managed to get 29 wins and 74 points.

You still aren't making any convincing arguments that Ward has shown he's part of the solution. Blaming the players is a waste at this point because the roster is what it is and the only way it's going to improve is under better coaching.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Well i've watched other players do it, have you not? Why couldnt Gaudreau? (Top 10 PP in the league since Ward took over BTW)




That must be it. It's just coincidence that it flies in the face of your argument.



Who did that?...or are we now down to the strawman segment of the debate?

The Flames core has way more of a history of success as players than Geoff Ward as a head coach. But then when your head coach has had zero success as a head coach it's not hard to beat.

It's not a straw man to point out repeated errors in system design and player usage (Leivo). It's a pattern of how terrible Geoff Ward is. You seem to think NHL players don't need any guidance or assistance from a coach, and that they aren't normal human beings.

I guess you believe there is no such thing as a bad teacher, only a bad student.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I'm not big on harping on the bottom half of the roster, but Leivo was brutal last night. Multiple failed clears and puck battles where he just didn't engage at all, like his limp fly-by on the GWG.

That end game deployment was odd. Last whistle was at 15:13. 13-23-88 started, then Lindholm line, then Lucic-Froese-Bennett.

Around EN time, Lindholm+Mangi+(Froese stuck) on, then replaced by Tkachuk+Monahan+Leivo...but then it looks like even Froese comes back on again? Weird.


https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...R&game_num=237

Dobber might be wrong. re-watching now.

Bennett-Froese-Lucic give up a terrible 3-2 and then change around 2:30 left.

Dube-Mangi-Leivo...zone entry and one-timer to Mangi in the slot. Markstrom out for Tkachuk with 2:00.

Monahan gets on for Dubé at 1:55. Leivo could easily have changed off at 1:55 (literally at the centre ice dot), yet Dubé is the one to come all the way across the ice. There is a Flame straddling the bench who never gets on...presumably Gaudreau.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You still aren't making any convincing arguments that Ward has shown he's part of the solution. Blaming the players is a waste at this point because the roster is what it is and the only way it's going to improve is under better coaching.

I don’t think Ward is the solution. But “better” coaching is not any kind of game changer. Saying the roster is what it is doesn’t change that. Unless you get Trotz, the record is going to be the same, and maybe even with him (the Isles are 6-4-3 with a negative goal differential).

[zamler]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Nonsense.

Its just as often because you cant change 20 guys and its much easier to change one guy.

Is Laviolette a good coach? Cause he got fired multiple times. His team is not going well right now...is it because he forgot how to coach or is it just maybe something to do with personnel?

Hell Scotty Bowman was fired multiple times...must be because he is a bad coach.

How about Gallant? Hes been fired multiple times. Some want him in Calgary? Why? Because according to your logic he is a bad coach after being fired over and over....right?

Boudreau...fired 3 times now!! 3 times as bad a coach.

All I am saying is that this group has clearly proven a tough bunch to get any consistency out of and to blame Ward for all that is just lazy and unfair. Every guy who has had them has found out the same thing.

Clearly you think this team is no good so I can only assume you are calling for Tre to be fired ASAP? This is not a rhetorical question.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yup. The whole point of the bump back (used by at least 75% of the teams in the league) is to give the carrier a good look at where the defenders are lined up, so he can go to the other areas. Johnny gets fixed on entering the left side. Or his line mates are not moving to receive the short pass across the line, which is how the entry is supposed to work.

The narratives are tiring. “Ward never makes adjustments” (I guess except for all those games this year where the Flames came back from poor starts). “Ward insists on rolling 4 lines” (except when he plays the 3rd line except PK Nordstrom for 3-4 minutes). “The system doesn’t work” (with 3 different descriptions of the system).

Can you name one systems adjustment Ward has made as head coach? Randomly blending the lines to reward Leivo or Nordstrom is a pretty weak adjustment if that's what you are hanging your hat on.

In particular our PP entries and breakout have not changed all season, and both are not effective. The core pieces of the lines all stay the same, and Ward shuffles the wings.

[BigFlameDog]

The players deserve some blame for sure and that has been a long time frustration, but Ward's situational deployment has been very questionable for most of his time as head coach. I am convinced that his rolling the lines approach results in the correct deployment as a fluke only. So I reserve the right to think he is a bad head coach and the players need to get their head out of their butts.

You don't put the Monahan line out for D-Zoe faceoffs on purpose, 4th line for O-Zone. Why are Valimaki and Mackay killing penalties together? The previously mentioned Leivo and Froese out for a critical shift with the goalie pulled?

Seems like he is trying to be the smartest guy at the bar when the obvious choice is the actual correct choice most of the time.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by zamler

Clearly you think this team is no good so I can only assume you are calling for Tre to be fired ASAP? This is not a rhetorical question.

I think Treliving has done OK with the cards he was dealt. A few obvious hits and a view obvious misses. What’s missing is the high lottery picks. Very few teams have success without it and those ones luck into an overlooked star player.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think Treliving has done OK with the cards he was dealt. A few obvious hits and a view obvious misses. What’s missing is the high lottery picks. Very few teams have success without it and those ones luck into an overlooked star player.

You want the team to tank for a few years?

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by BigFlameDog

The players deserve some blame for sure and that has been a long time frustration, but Ward's situational deployment has been very questionable for most of his time as head coach. I am convinced that his rolling the lines approach results in the correct deployment as a fluke only. So I reserve the right to think he is a bad head coach and the players need to get their head out of their butts.

You don't put the Monahan line out for D-Zoe faceoffs on purpose, 4th line for O-Zone. Why are Valimaki and Mackay killing penalties together? The previously mentioned Leivo and Froese out for a critical shift with the goalie pulled?

Seems like he is trying to be the smartest guy at the bar when the obvious choice is the actual correct choice most of the time.

The Valimaki-Mackey PK complaint seems weird since there were no PP goals against. This seems to me to be complaining about something which worked.

[Rejean31]

Originally Posted by genetic_phreek

They should switch Tkachuk and Bennett. Dube and Lindholm are North South players and so is Bennett to a degree. Tkachuk is a slow player so the fact that Johnny likes to slow down the play might be more beneficial as well.

I think all the players on this team are north/south players, but the stupid coaching staff has them playing a ridiculously boring east/west system that the players, clearly, are not comfortable playing!!

[flambers]

Originally Posted by zamler

Clearly you think this team is no good so I can only assume you are calling for Tre to be fired ASAP? This is not a rhetorical question.

There is most definitely something wrong with the team...

Inconsistency is something that just won't go away

Personally I don't think its coaching related.

its the core.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don’t think Ward is the solution. But “better” coaching is not any kind of game changer. Saying the roster is what it is doesn’t change that. Unless you get Trotz, the record is going to be the same, and maybe even with him (the Isles are 6-4-3 with a negative goal differential).

There are lots of examples where coaching changes had significant impacts on the team.

At this point what is there to lose by hiring a proven head coach?

Beyond this, people who support Ward don't seem to have anything specific to say about what he is doing well. Everything is on the players not executing his plan. As if they don't want to or something.

If they can't execute his plan I think it's because it doesn't suit their skillets Wars needs to change the system to something they can execute. This is the kind of thing a head coach with actual head coaching experience could do.

[CaptainYooh]

I didn't post yesterday, because I was too upset. Not because of the loss, but because of how bad and uninvolved the team looked on ice. Those two PP's in a row were shameful for an NHL team. I said it many times, this is entertainment and for the amount of money being paid to the players, they owe it to the spectators to put the best show they can each and every time, winning or losing. What we saw yesterday was not it. I don't know how long will Markstrom be able to hold the gates from opening, but it can't go on for too much longer.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Hopefully Backlund is back for next game. If he misses:

Gaudreau - Monahan - Tkachuk (o zone)
Mangiapane - Lindholm - Simon (Good defensively, hounding pucks)
Lucic - Bennett - Dube (This line will play hard, simple and direct)
Nordstrom - Froese/Gawdin - Leivo

Hanifin - Tanev
Vali - Andersson
Gio - Mackey

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

It appears increasingly evident that those 4 months were the exception, not the rule with this team.

So the "exception" in the 4 months was they had a hard nosed coach that forced this core to show up and be accountable? Sounds good to me. Why not try that again?

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Toonage

This seems like a rare moment where everyone is right.

Coaching is poor. Roster construction is poor. Effort and drive is poor.

That's a lot to overcome.

This. Scotty Bowman could coach this team and you’d run into the personnel problems still. Poor roster construction and players haven’t developed like we needed them to.

The ceiling of this roster is make the playoffs and lose first round. I don’t see any other plausible outcome, realistically.